Unknown Uniform Pattern MM winner

[mark holden]

This card depicts a MM winner from possibly a TMB however it is his uniform that is intriguing. It has braided cord epaulettes and plain round buttons and angled pocket flaps. Neither lower sleeve is visible in the image so possibly a Warrant Officer? Any ideas?    

 

Thanks

 

Mark

[mancpal]

cant really help but is that a mourning button where his chain is fitted?

[FROGSMILE]

I think it’s a transitional, early pattern (pre-1902) drab service dress jacket.  The first version, of 1899, was simply a drab khaki copy of the 5-button home service scarlet frock with the flapped skirt pockets and twisted shoulder cords.  In a similar manner the final pattern of scarlet frock, with its chest pockets, was also made in drab serge circa 1900-1901, and I believe that is what is seen here.  A slightly different version can be seen in the photo below.  In both cases ‘ball buttons’ have been used.  Presumably the subject in the photo has retained the older pattern of jacket for walking out with his sweetheart or sister.

 

Edited 28 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

It had to last a long time if that is an MM ribbon and a TM or bomber badge! 16 years or so.

[Buffnut453]

What's the badge on his left sleeve? Fusilier perhaps?

[Muerrisch]

Trench Mortar or Bomber ...... on wrong arm.

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

It had to last a long time if that is an MM ribbon and a TM or bomber badge! 16 years or so.

 

Yes a very long time.  I’ve seen them before, but unsurprisingly they seem rare.  Not that many could have been made.

Edited 29 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[jay dubaya]

Certainly looks like a mourning button and  there is a strong likeness of the two faces enough to suggest a sister

 

J

[CorporalPunishment]

16 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think it’s a transitional, early pattern (pre-1902) drab service dress jacket.  The first version, of 1899, was simply a drab khaki copy of the 5-button home service scarlet frock with the flapped skirt pockets and twisted shoulder cords.  In a similar manner the final pattern of scarlet frock, with its chest pockets, was also made in drab serge circa 1900-1901, and I believe that is what is seen here.  A slightly different version can be seen in the photo below.  In both cases ‘ball buttons’ have been used.  Presumably the subject in the photo has retained the older pattern of jacket for walking out with his sweetheart or sister.

 

That's an interesting group photo. They are men of the Australasian Squadron, King's Colonials, before the squadron was split to form the Australian Squadron and the New Zealand Squadron.  Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, CorporalPunishment said:

That's an interesting group photo. They are men of the Australasian Squadron, King's Colonials, before the squadron was split to form the Australian Squadron and the New Zealand Squadron.  Pete.

 

Yes, I thought it was a fine photo too.  It’s full of interesting uniform features resonant of the period between the 2nd Anglo/Boer War and WW1, a time of great transition following the lessons learned in the aforesaid conflict.

[CorporalPunishment]

43 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Yes, I thought it was a fine photo too.  It’s full of interesting uniform features resonant of the period between the 2nd Anglo/Boer War and WW1, a time of great transition following the lessons learned in the aforesaid conflict.

It has to date between 1901 when the regiment was formed and 1903 when the Australasian Squadron was split. There appears to be a wide age range amongst the group as well, the man centre row, second from left, looks well over military age unless it's the mooey.  Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

29 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

It has to date between 1901 when the regiment was formed and 1903 when the Australasian Squadron was split. There appears to be a wide age range amongst the group as well, the man centre row, second from left, looks well over military age unless it's the mooey.  Pete.

 

Yes, towards the latter would be my guess.  The old boy has the earlier frock with flapped pockets in the skirt and has folded the standing collar back to form a rever.  Two others in the rearmost row wear the older jacket too.  Note the two staff NCOS wearing Sam Browne belts, seated front left, one a QMS, the other a staff sergeant with Stohwasser gaiters, which might help with the date.

[CorporalPunishment]

38 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Yes, towards the latter would be my guess.  The old boy has the earlier frock with flapped pockets in the skirt and has folded the standing collar back to form a rever.  Two others in the rearmost row wear the older jacket too.  Note the two staff NCOS wearing Sam Browne belts, seated front left, one a QMS, the other a staff sergeant with Stohwasser gaiters, which might help with the date.

The QMS is wearing the KC monogram and Plumes cap badge and an odd expression too. .  Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, CorporalPunishment said:

The QMS is wearing the KC monogram and Plumes cap badge and an odd expression too. .  Pete.

 

Thinking about it, he might even be a sergeant major if there’s a crown above his stripes.  As for the odd expression, it’s his eyes I think.  Perhaps a monocle or pince nez.  Failing that, he might have really bad constipation!

Edited 29 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

44 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Thinking about it, he might even be a sergeant major if there’s a crown above his stripes.  As for the odd expression, it’s his eyes I think.  Perhaps a monocle or pince nez.  Failing that, he might have really bad constipation!

By the smile on his face I'd be inclined to think he was about to seriously break wind!!. Pete.

[Ron Clifton]

The bandoliers are of a pattern which pre-dates 1903, but were still in use in Volunteer/TF units later than that. And I don't think it can be a MM ribbon, since the MM was not instituted until 1916.

 

Ron

[Muerrisch]

Ron, if you mean the OP soldier with female, NB the grenade badge was only authorised in 1915 or 1916. I can pin that down if needs be.

[PhilB]

In post #3, what rank is the man in centre of front row with several (4 or 5?) buttons (?) on lower sleeve?

[CorporalPunishment]

1 hour ago, PhilB said:

In post #3, what rank is the man in centre of front row with several (4 or 5?) buttons (?) on lower sleeve?

Bandsman.  Pete.

[Muerrisch]

55 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Bandsman.  Pete.

 

I fear not.

 

As to what he is ....... an officer, yes, but I cannot cope with colonial practices.

[CorporalPunishment]

32 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

 

I fear not.

 

As to what he is ....... an officer, yes, but I cannot cope with colonial practices.

I was under the impression that only the other ranks wore the squadron badges so I checked it out and now see I was mistaken. I know the officers of King Edward's Horse wore a different pattern badge to that of the other ranks so that must be the cause of my confusion. I blame old age.   Pete.

[PhilB]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

As to what he is ....... an officer, yes, but I cannot cope with colonial practices.

You`ll notice he has vertical bands on his cuff below the buttons.

[FROGSMILE]

I agree with Muerrisch that he’s an officer.  You can just about see a rank badge on his shoulder straps, as well as the special cuff decoration.  The very first pattern of 1902 officers’ SD was intended to have similar vertical braiding, but without the buttons.

Edited 30 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

Just to confuse things, here are two photos of King`s Colonials, one clearly an officer, one not!

[Muerrisch]

I knew that I should have left this thread alone.