Pte John McGargle, 8th Batt Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, Service N° 24110 - Two Dates of Death

[George Millar]

John McGargle or more correctly John James McGargle was born on the 11th February 1879 at Gateshead, County Durham to parents James McGargle and Anne Carty / McCarty. He was one of six children born to James and Anne having three sisters (Mary E, Annie & Ellen) and two brothers (William & James). By the time of the 1911 census, he was living with his father James who was now a widower and the rest of his siblings at the family home in 31 Edward Street, Newcastle upon Tyne. He was working as a Labourer at this time.

From information that I have been able to access, he attested sometime between the 7th and 14th June 1915 into the 3rd (Reserve) battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers and given the Service N° 24110.  As John was only awarded the British War & Victory Medal, it can be assumed that he only went to France after his training sometime in early 1916 and joined the 8th (Service) battalion Inniskilling Fusiliers.

The 8th battalion who were part of the 49th Brigade in the 16th (Irish) Division moved to France in December 1915 and concentrated in the Bethune area.  The first major action for the battalion was in the Battle of Guillemont as a part of the Battle of the Somme in September 1916.

Unfortunately John died in 1916 but has two dates for his death listed, the first one being the 29th April 1916 and the other the 29th September 1916.  The first date of the 29th April 1916 is listed in the Army Registers of Soldiers Effects & also in the Pension Ledgers & Index Cards.  He is listed as having been “Gassed in France”.  The second date of the 29th September 1916 is listed in the CWGC website, Soldiers Died in the Great War & Irelands Casualties of WW1.

From the 8th battalion War Diary, they were in Noeux-les-Mines in April and they did suffer gas casualties on the 29th April with 4 other ranks killed.  For the 29th September the battalion were in Locre but were in Divisional Reserve on that date with no casualties.  Both locations for these dates being in France. This suggests that the date of the 29th April 1916 is the most likely for his death.  However, John’s name is listed on panel 22 of the Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial in Belgium which is very strange and surely cannot be correct?  Surely his name should have been on a memorial in France and not Belgium. I would appreciate any comments from forum members with their thoughts on the matter.

[Cheshire22]

Have You obtained a copy of his death Certificate which will contain the correct date of death. 

 

Also have you looked for any details in the local papers for the different dates to if anything appears in them, during the time scales

[George Millar]

Hi Cheshire22

I haven't checked his death certificate as I thought that there wouldn't have been one issued in England.  I'll have another look, thanks for the suggestion.  As regards the local papers, I haven't got access to them and as I live in France I wouldn't be able to go to the local library to access them.

Regards

George

[Cheshire22]

British Newspapers Archives is online.  

[charlie962]

Effects and Pensions are normally pretty reliable, being financial records. So April looks good.

 

I think the Irish Gt War  roll follows SDGW. SDGW has often got errors.

 

CWGC do also make mistakes- and will accept corrections if backed up with proper paperwork.

 

I note his death was reported in the Daily Casualty List of 26/5/16 which points to a death about late April.

 

Charlie

 

edit

 

Edited 30 June , 2019 by charlie962

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, Cheshire22 said:

Have You obtained a copy of his death Certificate which will contain the correct date of death. 

This is the ref:

[George Millar]

Hello Cheshire22,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I haven't been able to find his death record in the England & Wales Death records in Ancestry so I don't think one exists for him.

 

Charlie,

Thanks for a copy of the Casualty list for the 26th May 1916.  This seems to confirm that he died in April as opposed to the September date in CWGC.  As you say, I think the Ireland records have just copied the details from the CWGC so that would be the same date as recorded there. The thing I find strange is that his name is recorded on the Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial in Belgium.  What are your views on that?

 

George

[Cheshire22]

15 hours ago, charlie962 said:

This is the ref:

George 

 

the above are the details of the entry in the register of death for the Great War

 

Year : 1916

Volume : I.74

Page : 239

 

this can be obtained from the GRO in Southport. 

 

It can be order online at www.gro.gov.uk 

 

this will contain, the date of death and other bits of information.

 

 

[charlie962]

25 minutes ago, Cheshire22 said:

this will contain, the date of death and other bits of information.

and I presume will be accepted by CWGC as proof of correct date of death.

[George Millar]

Cheshire22 & Charlie962

Thanks again for the information.  I'll order this record online at the gro.gov site. Any thoughts on why his name is on the Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial? I'd appreciate your thoughts.

Regards

George

 

[Cheshire22]

54 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

and I presume will be accepted by CWGC as proof of correct date of death.

 

the death certificate is the official document, in which they will accept as the official date of death 

[Cheshire22]

6 hours ago, George Millar said:

Cheshire22 & Charlie962

Thanks again for the information.  I'll order this record online at the gro.gov site. Any thoughts on why his name is on the Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial? I'd appreciate your thoughts.

Regards

George

 

As his date of 29th September 1916, matches the area, the Battalion was around Ieper.  It would have presumed that he was killed in that area and this is why his name is on the Menin Gate.  

 

 

[George Millar]

Cheshire22,

You're correct when you say the battalion was in Belgium on the 29th September (at Locre) but if we are agreed that he died in April 1916, then he died in France not Belgium.  If that is the case then he shouldn't be on the Menin Gate Memorial but on a Memorial in France.

Regards

George

 

[jay dubaya]

Could it be that the original recorded date of death was written as 29/4/16 and that at some point the 4 has been transcribed as a 9? McGargle is the only casualty of the battalion listed for the September date  and like Cheshire22 says above his name appears on the Menin Gate because the battalion were in Belgium at that time. CWGC record 53 casualties for the 29th April 1916 - Loos Memorial 38, Vermelles BC 8, Bethune TC 5, Chocques MC 1 and Philosophe BC 1. So one would expect his name should be on the Loos Memorial. Whilst the CWGC will amend the DoD with supporting evidence I do suspect that since his name is recorded on a memorial to the missing already they will be in no rush to amend this.

 

Jon

[Cheshire22]

has two dates for his death listed, the first one being the 29th April 1916 and the other the 29th September 1916. The first date of the 29th April 1916 is listed in the Army Registers of Soldiers Effects & also in the Pension Ledgers& Index Cards.  He is listed as havingbeen “Gassed in France”.  The second date of the 29th September 1916 islisted in the CWGC website, SoldiersDied in the Great War & IrelandsCasualties of WW1.

 

if the date of death is April 1916 on the death certificate and the Battalion were around Loos, 

 

then his Name should appear on the Loos Memorial 

 

 

[Skipman]

There's an old thread of mine here that probably doesn't answer your question but it does give an idea of how things that maybe made sense then, seem rather odd now.

 

Click

 

Mike

Edited 2 July , 2019 by Skipman
spelling error

[George Millar]

Firstly, many thanks to all who have commented on this topic.  I think as what Cheshire22 has said, perhaps the only option to resolve the date of death is his death certificate and with that his proper place of remembrance.  I have been on the GRO site to order the certificate but keep going round in circles (perhaps it's just me!).  They do list that the records are available but they don't seem to be available for ordering online.  Has anyone else ordered one of these certificates?  I'll contact the GRO to find out what to do. Below details from the site

WW1 Army Death indexes – the volume will always show a letter, as well as a number, followed by the page number. The letters are A, C, E, F, G, I, M, N, and S. These relate to the book number – e.g.: A.1. p. 29 or B.3. p.32 etc. The majority start with the letter ‘I’. The only letter for Army Officer deaths is the letter 'O' followed by a number, plus a page number.

Q7. What will I see on an overseas certificate?

Due to the variety in format of overseas records, it depends on the type of record the certificate is produced from.

Death certificates will normally include date and place of death (in respect of war deaths, this may just state the country), name and surname of the deceased and often the age at death or date of birth.

If I do finally get to order the certificate then perhaps everything will be a lot clearer and if it is found that he should be on the Loos Memorial then I'll send all the relevant information to the CWGC for their comments.  By the way, I've done this for another soldier in a previous thread but never received confirmation that they received the information that I sent or that they were looking into it. 

 

George

[Cheshire22]

Here is a phone number, you can ring 

 

+44 (0)300 123 1837 

 

if you explain what you need and give them the details I.e. name rank number with the volume, year and page. 

 

They will be more then happy to help

[ss002d6252]

By way of comparison, #24112 was issued 19 June 1915

McGargle's war gratuity was £3, the war gratuity paid for a service of 12 months or less.

 

If he had died on 29 Sep 1916 then the earliest he would have enlisted was 30 Sep 1915.

 

If we take a date of 29 April 16 then the earliest he could have enlisted was 30 April 1915, this fits in with the date of June 1915 when his number would have been issued.

 

Craig

[George Millar]

Hi Cheshire22,

thanks for the phone N°, I'll give them a ring tomorrow.

 

Craig,

I estimated his enlistment from the service records of other soldiers of the regiment

S/N° 23924 attested on the 7th June 1915

S/N° 24156 attested on the 14th June 1915

so I estimated that he attested between these dates.

 

It's looking more like he died on the 29th April 1916 but hopefully when I get the death certificate this will be confirmed or not.

 

George

[ss002d6252]

 

Quote

It's looking more like he died on the 29th April 1916 but hopefully when I get the death certificate this will be confirmed or not.

Personally I wouldn't bother with the certificate and would save the money - The war gratuity has an accuracy rate pushing towards 100% (the army were exceedingly careful with money), the figures are consistent with an April 16 death. If it was Sep 16 then there'd have to be yet another error made. It also ties in with the casualty list from May 16. HIs Will is also dated to April 16 - https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Wills?Surname=mcgargle&SurnameGrants=mcgargle&YearOfDeath=1916&YearOfDeathGrants=1916&IsGrantSearch=False&IsCalendarSearch=False#soldiers as is his father's dependant pension claim - https://www.westernfrontassociation.com:2061/image/645379359

 

 

The CWGC records have a lot of transcription errors, a 4 is easily transcribed as a 9 when trying to read someone's original writing.

Craig

[Skipman]

3 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

 

The war gratuity has an accuracy rate pushing towards 100% (the army were exceedingly careful with money), the figures are consistent with an April 16 death.
Craig

 

Not doubting the accuracy of your tremendous piece of work Craig, but won't the CWGC require the death certificate?

 

Mike

[charlie962]

16 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

4 is easily transcribed as a 9

And I've seen this where they used roman numerals for the month; in this case a iv and a ix could easily be confused ?

[George Millar]

Craig,

I tried to find his will before when I started researching him but I kept getting an error message from the website.  I suppose I should have tried again but forgot about it. I've just gone on the website following your link and his will states that he died on the 29th April 1916 but as Skipman says, will the CWGC accept that as proof of death?

George

[Cheshire22]

From the CWGC website 

 

The accuracy of our records is very important to us - we are willing to consider amendments where appropriate. Any application for amendment must be supported by relevant documentary evidence. This can include a service record, birth, marriage and death certificate.

We also need to be sure that the certificates you provide refer to the casualty in question. Documentary evidence which links the certificate(s) or service record to the casualty such as a memorial card or obituary notice may be required.

If you need advice on how to obtain documentary evidence, click here.

Please download our amendmentform to complete and email it along with your supporting evidence to enquiries@cwgc.org.