Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 14 June , 2019 Share Posted 14 June , 2019 Thank you Keith. It's much more like the right hand (Herefordshire) badge in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKY Posted 16 June , 2019 Author Share Posted 16 June , 2019 On 13/06/2019 at 20:10, RussT said: Do you know where he was from? The reason I ask is because the men with Border Regiment numbers either side of his were ex Herefordshire Rgt TF who were all transferred to the Border Regt on 11th October 1916 Looking at the Herefordshire Regt cap badge this may be right. You mean the Border Regt based in Carlisle? Any reason why they went there? According to the records he was taken prosiner in late November 1916 on the Somme. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Atkins Posted 16 June , 2019 Share Posted 16 June , 2019 On 14/06/2019 at 18:03, Keith_history_buff said: I've made a collage, with the two regimental badges on either side, and the photo in the middle, in the absence of a higher resolution scan. Herefords, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 16 June , 2019 Admin Share Posted 16 June , 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, KIRKY said: Looking at the Herefordshire Regt cap badge this may be right. You mean the Border Regt based in Carlisle? Any reason why they went there? According to the records he was taken prosiner in late November 1916 on the Somme. Tony Yes, the Border Regiment who had their Depot in Carlisle - but he never went anywhere near that Depot. He was one of at least 212 men transferred from the Herefordshire Regiment to the King's Shropshire Light Infantry at 4/IBD (Rouen) on 03/10/1916 and then almost immediately after to the 11/Border Regiment at 4/IBD on 11/10/1916. The men were re-numbered to the Border Regiment in alphabetical surname order going from 27668 Ayers to 27879 Vaughan. The photograph of him wearing a Herefordshire Regiment cap badge was evidently taken in the UK prior to his deployment overseas and this transfer. That he came from Hereford is entirely consistent with him joining his local TF Herefordshire Regiment. Without knowledge of his Herefordshire Regiment number, it is not possible to determine when he enlisted. I think the only mystery is why the family are adamant he joined the Breckonshire Regiment ! Regards Russ Edited 16 June , 2019 by RussT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 16 June , 2019 Share Posted 16 June , 2019 Thank you for concluding the story, Russ, and for explaining the source-based evidence behind this. The only other mystery is why a Breckonshire Regiment has been mentioned throughout. Were they lower in order of precedence to the Lundin Regiment and the Lancoshire Fusiliers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKY Posted 16 June , 2019 Author Share Posted 16 June , 2019 21 minutes ago, RussT said: Yes, the Border Regiment who had their Depot in Carlisle - but he never went anywhere near that Depot. He was one of at least 212 men transferred from the Herefordshire Regiment to the King's Shropshire Light Infantry at 4/IBD (Rouen) on 03/10/1916 and then almost immediately after to the 11/Border Regiment at 4/IBD on 11/10/1916. The men were re-numbered to the Border Regiment in alphabetical surname order going from 27668 Ayers to 27879 Vaughan. The photograph of him wearing a Herefordshire Regiment cap badge was evidently taken in the UK prior to his deployment overseas and this transfer. That he came from Hereford is entirely consistent with him joining his local TF Herefordshire Regiment. Without knowledge of his Herefordshire Regiment number, it is not possible to determine when he enlisted. I think the only mystery is why the family are adamant he joined the Breckonshire Regiment ! Regards Russ Thanks, that is great. As he was in 11th Borders and captured at Beaumont Hamel in November 1916 could he have been one of the survivors of the party cut off in Frankfurt Trench? Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 16 June , 2019 Share Posted 16 June , 2019 39 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: Thank you for concluding the story, Russ, and for explaining the source-based evidence behind this. Yes indeed. Very interesting. 41 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: The only other mystery is why a Breckonshire Regiment has been mentioned throughout. Were they lower in order of precedence to the Lundin Regiment and the Lancoshire Fusiliers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 16 June , 2019 Admin Share Posted 16 June , 2019 1 hour ago, KIRKY said: Thanks, that is great. As he was in 11th Borders and captured at Beaumont Hamel in November 1916 could he have been one of the survivors of the party cut off in Frankfurt Trench? Tony I think that is the most likely explanation for his capture on the 25th Nov 1916 - looks like up to 3 Officers and 120 ORs were cut off In Frankfurt Trench. By the way, here is the 11/Bn Border Rgt War Diary entry for the arrival of these 212 ORs on 11/10/1916, who were evidently all ex Herefordshire Rgt men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Atkins Posted 16 June , 2019 Share Posted 16 June , 2019 This info is already known to some, but just in the interests of summary the Red Cross POW records give: his date and place of capture as 26-11-16 at Beaumont on the Somme (unwounded); his date of birth as 28-12-95; his mother as living at Carway, Hereford; his unit as A Coy, 11th Borderers; his place of imprisonment as Dülmen camp. Cheers, Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKY Posted 16 June , 2019 Author Share Posted 16 June , 2019 Thanks to all who have contributed! This has been a great journey from trying to identify a Regiment to a place I have visited a few times, the strong point in Frankfurt trench and I had already planned to revisit in March 2020! Fantastic and the Forum at its best! Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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