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KIRKY

Breckonshire Regt but Borders on medals?

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KIRKY

Got a photo of a soldier with a Breckonshire cap badge but his medals say Borders Regt, his family insost he was in the Breckonshire Regt nd not the Borders? His MIC says Borders.

He is Harold Robert Clarke 27671

Any one explain this?

Tony

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Michelle Young

There were 3 Brecknockshire Battalions of the territorial Force South Wales  Borderers 

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Keith_history_buff

At the outbreak of WW1, there was in existence the following:

South Wales Borderers
1st Battalion (men serving under Regular terms, and with the colours) - deployed in the UK, at Bordon

2nd Battalion (men serving under Regular terms, and with the colours) - deployed overseas

It was possible to form a 3rd Battalion. Some of these men would come from the Army Reserve, and they would be regulars who had served their time with the colours, and were now in Civvy Street, with a reserve obligation. Other men were in the Special Reserve, formed in 1908 and with its roots in the militia. Those men called to the colours were obliged to serve overseas.

There was a fourth battalion that was available. This was made up of men who were in the Territorial Force, having its roots in the Volunteer movement. This was not known as the "4th Battalion", but was instead known as the Brecknock Battalion. Men of the TF had no obligation to serve overseas. Nonetheless, many did sign the "Imperial Service Obligation", thereby consenting ‘in the event of national emergency, to serve in any place outside of the United Kingdom.’ Those who came forward left the UK on 29 October 1914, destination Bombay, and have four digit service numbers. Rather than wearing the regimental badge of wreath and sphinx, they wore a Welsh dragon.

Subsequent battalions of TF men from the regiment were formed. These battalions were known as Monmouthshire Regiment and it gets a bit confusing. I think there was a similar arrangement with the KSLI, and its TF element being known as the Herefordshire Regiment. 

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Scalyback
Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

There were 3 Brecknockshire Battalions of the territorial Force South Wales  Borderers 

Incorrect.

 

3 Monmouth Regiments and 1 Breckonshire Regiment to make "The Corps of the South Wales Borderers" along with the South Wales Borderers.

 

29 minutes ago, KIRKY said:

Got a photo of a soldier with a Breckonshire cap badge but his medals say Borders Regt, his family insost he was in the Breckonshire Regt nd not the Borders? His MIC says Borders.

He is Harold Robert Clarke 27671

Any one explain this?

Tony

 

Breckonshire regiment went to India and Arden with most casualties coming from diseases and accidents rather than enemy action.

 

I will look further but I guess he was punted to SWB (the HQs being in sight of each other) and served with them. 

Most brecknocks signed the imperial service. They marched as a formed unit from their interrupted annual camp in 1914.

Edited by Scalyback

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little bob

Medal Roll  Harold Clarke  27671 served in the 11 Battalion Border Regiment. 

 

Bob

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Scalyback
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Subsequent battalions of TF men from the regiment were formed. These battalions were known as Monmouthshire Regiment and it gets a bit confusing. I think there was a similar arrangement with the KSLI, and its TF element being known as the Herefordshire Regiment. 

 

Again incorrect. The Monmouth regiment has history in the Volunteer Battalions. Hence the use of Rifle additions. Noting to do with the KSLI!

 

Edit. Monmouthshire Rifle Volunteers raised 1859/1860 

Then become 2nd Volunteer Battalion SWB In 1885

Finally formed as 1st (Rifle) Battalionlion The Monmouth Regiment TF in 1908. 

All same drill locations. 

Edited by Scalyback

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Keith_history_buff

Mea culpa. They had been associated with the South Wales Borderers, but this ceased in 1908.

I would image that Clarke did his training in a TF battalion, the details of which are not recorded on the medal roll. 

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Scalyback
3 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Mea culpa. They had been associated with the South Wales Borderers, but this ceased in 1908.

I would image that Clarke did his training in a TF battalion, the details of which are not recorded on the medal roll. 

 

No they continued still "as the Corps of the South Wales Borderers".

In think the cut finally come in 1922 on reforming the TF but the SWB Brecknocks and Monmouth have always intertwined. 

You could add the South Wales Corps to the mix but that is to do with the yeomanry. 

I agree very confusing unless you look at the entire family tree of units.

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Scalyback

Official history of Breckonshire.

Annual camp at Porthmadog before returning to Brecon(The HQ being separate to SWB at The Barracks, Watton) before the 5th of August. Almost all officers and men signed the imperial service commitment before going to coastal duties. 

Left 29th of October for Aden with Lord Glanusk in command. They did not return until after October 1919.

 

If this chap is Boarder only then one of the few not to sign the imperial service. Where is the family from? 

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Michelle Young
34 minutes ago, Scalyback said:

Incorrect.

 

3 Monmouth Regiments and 1 Breckonshire Regiment to make "The Corps of the South Wales Borderers" along with the South Wales Borderers.

 

 

Misread this then

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/south-wales-borderers/

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Scalyback
Just now, Michelle Young said:

 

They formed the 2nd line battalions in line with other regiments. Unfortunately neither extra battalion "done anything" and got absorbed up into other units. The 1st Breckonshire regiment(containing most of the original pre war members) stayed out in Aden and India with low losses did not need reinforcement. 

Served more as support to The Monmouth Regiment, who needed everything considering they nearly disappeared of the orbat at one point. 

 

Looking further down that page 10th and 11th formed at Brecon in October. I think our chap decided too late to join his pals and that's where they placed him. 

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RussT
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, KIRKY said:

He is Harold Robert Clarke 27671

 

Do you know where he was from?

 

The reason I ask is because the men with Border Regiment numbers either side of his were ex Herefordshire Rgt TF who were all transferred to the Border Regt on 11th October 1916

Edited by RussT

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Keith_history_buff
59 minutes ago, RussT said:

all transferred to the Border Regt on 11th October 1916

 

Good to know, given that all his MIC told us was an entitlement to the BWM and VM.

Thanks Russ

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Keith_history_buff
1 hour ago, Scalyback said:

Looking further down that page 10th and 11th formed at Brecon in October. I think our chap decided too late to join his pals and that's where they placed him. 

 

He was in the 11th Bn of The Border Regiment, and not the SWB, as per his MIC.

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Michelle Young

Member Westonfront has an interest in the Herefordshire men who went to the Borders 

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KIRKY

THanks guys for all of your amazing help, as stated above he was in the Borders not the SWB unless his medals and MIC are wrong?

He was from Herefordshire. He was also a POW having been captured on the Somme in late November 1916, everything points to him being in the Borders but his family are adament and the photo of his defo shows a Breckonshire cap badge.

Tony

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RussT

Can you post the photo

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Keith_history_buff

It would have been helpful to have started this post with the image, and precision as to what the regiments were. Given the mention of the Brecknockshire Battalion, it would usually seem most likely that of the three regiments with 'Boarders [sic]' in their title, that the SWB would be the most likely contender, hence the red herring. 


The posting of the image will add further clarity.

 

Here's a similar post

 

On 20/02/2018 at 22:22, FROGSMILE said:

The cap badge is Brecknockshire Battalion of the South Wales Borderers, who wore a Welsh Dragon identical to that worn by the Monmouthshire Regiment, but with a scroll below bearing the regimental title.  They were a Territorial Force unit.

 

 

 


 

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KIRKY

Here is the photo, the main issue is why his medals and MIC show Border Regiment and how he got to them?

Tony

photww1_20190614_0002.jpg

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Keith_history_buff

I have a family member whose MIC has only the service number, of the regiment with whom he was in France and Flanders from November 1916 onwards.  

There is a mysterious reference to a former regiment and service number on his SDGW entry. His youngest son's birth certificate also contains this info. (He was born in the summer of 1916.) By checking the service numbers of fellow Derby Scheme men, and finding surviving service records, it was possible to deduce that he did his training with one regiment, but this battalion was merged with others in the same Training Reserve Brigade. The men were then used as a pool to provide reinforcements, which resulted in him being transferred to a new regiment. It sounds like a similar scenario here. 

With regard to this man's service prior to 11 October 1916, all I can suggest is to look for surviving service records of men with similar service numbers. I would imagine there was a similar scenario to the one above, of men being trained whilst in one battalion affiliated to X regiment, and the men then being drafted to a new unit.

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Keith_history_buff

Is there any better resolution of the image, as it looks like it could be either a Brecknockshire Battalion or a Herefordshire Regiment cap badge?

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KIRKY
32 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Is there any better resolution of the image, as it looks like it could be either a Brecknockshire Battalion or a Herefordshire Regiment cap badge?

best I could get , sorry,

Tony

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Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
Posted (edited)

Having no particular interest in badges or the South Wales Borderers, it's territorial battalions or the Border Regiment, I can see several loose ends here that don't tie up:

 

1) How do you and the family know that the person in question, Harold Robert Clarke is the man whose MIC bears the details 'Harold Clarke 27671'?

 

2) By the 'Border Regiment' I assume we are referring to the regiment that recruited in the Scotland/England border region?

 

3) There is no 'Borders Regiment' and no regiment that contains the word 'Borders'. The MIC says 'Bord R' and would expect his medals to be engraved as such. Do his medals really say 'Borders Regiment'?

 

4) Agree with Keith, we need a far higher resolution scan of the cap badge. The information is in the photograph and with a very hi-res scan, you will probably get an answer to at least part of the mystery.

Edited by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

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Keith_history_buff

I've made a collage, with the two regimental badges on either side, and the photo in the middle, in the absence of a higher resolution scan. 
 

Hereford_badge.JPG

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RaySearching
Posted (edited)

11th Bn Border Regiment according to the medal Roll

1325446863_borderReg.JPG.6f619fbb14ec8b79f41f0248359505ef.JPG

 

Image ancestry

 

Ray

Edit as posted earlier by little Bob in post 5

Edited by RaySearching

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