John Barnard: help with Regiment please

[Stebie9173]

There are a couple of surviving service records that can cast some light - see below. First thing to say is that it looks like the Royal Inniskiiling Fusiliers medal ledger clerks have got a bit confused between the Royal Fusiliers and the London Regiment - probably not the first and definitely not the last! It looks like the transfer between a Territorial only Regiment such as the London Regiment and a Regular only Regiment like the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers caused some headaches with army regulations. The soldiers switched in the above-mentioned base depot "grab" seem to have spent six months attached (and not officially transferred) to the 1st Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers before the War Office managed to figure out a way to officially transfer them properly - i.e. by discharging them from the T.F. and immediately re-enlisting them (I have seen similar transfers from T.F. to Machine Gun Corps handled in the same way).

 

As noted on the Long, Long Trail, this should have been dealt with earlier in 1916, but perhaps any addition problem may have stemmed from the fact that the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers were an Irish regiment - but I am guessing here.

 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/transfers-and-postings-from-territorial-force-to-regular-army/

 

 

43454 Archibald McFarlane

• Of Dalston / Islington, London
• Enlisted 12 December 1915 (Derby Scheme Volunteer)
• Posted to Army Reserve, 13 December 1915
• Mobilised from Army Reserve 22 June 1916
• 11th London Regiment, No. 11/5460 (no dates)
• 9th (Reserve) Battalion London Regiment (no dates)
• Posted to 12th London Regiment, No. 7238 under Army Order 204 of 1916
• Embarked overseas via Southampton and Havre 4 October 1916
• Attached to the 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers from 30 October 1916
• Discharged from the Territorial Force on 12 March 1917 and re-enlisted into the Regular Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers on 13 March 1917, being posted to 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers; new regimental number of 43454 issued
• 1st Inniskilling Fusiliers, No. 43454
• etc.

 

43460 William Bardill

• Of Fulham, London
• Previously served with 1st/13th London Regiment for 3 years and 279 days
• Enlisted into the 13th (Kensington) Battalion London Regiment on 3 June 1913
• No. 1456 in the 13th Battalion London Regiment
• Served with 13th Battalion London Regiment in France & Flanders from 6 January 1915 to 8 March 1917
• No. 490135 in the London Regiment
• Promoted to (Pioneer) Sergeant on 25 March 1916
• Invalided to England with influenza on 1 July 1916
• Returned to France and Flanders via Southampton and Havre on 11 October 1916
• Attached to 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers on 30 October 1916
• Discharged from the Territorial Force on 8 March 1917
• Re-enlisted "In the field" as a Private in the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers 9 March 1917 and posted to 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers
• Re-enlistement under the Authority of War Office letter 9/Gen No/6329 (DR 2) 18-11-1916
• Immediately promoted Sergeant (again)
• 1st Inniskilling Fusiliers, No. 43460
• etc.

 

It looks like John Barnard would have served with a battalion of the London Regiment - maybe his local one - in the UK, transferred to 13th (Kensington) Battalion in October 1916 (if he wasn't with them already) and then embarked overseas in early October 1916. Once at the base depot he would have been attached to the 1st Battalion of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers until March 1917 when he was officially transferred.

 

I think the next stage is to narrow down his date of transfer to the 13th Londons (from his 5873 number). If it is around October 1916 then he would have been serving with a different Home Service battalion (probably still in the London Regiment) before transfer across to be sent overseas.

 

Edit: It looks like the date of issue of number 5873 in the 13th Londons would be June 1916, so it is likely that he went straight to the 13th Londons on mobilisation after attesting under the Derby Scheme.

 

 

 

Steve.

Edited 5 May , 2019 by Stebie9173

[FROGSMILE]

Yet more brilliant work in putting together this immensely complex jigsaw puzzle, Steve.  No wonder the enquirer’s father-in-law has had so much trouble disentangling the story of John Barnard’s service.

Edited 5 May , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Stebie9173]

On the subject of trying to narrow down whether this is him - there is a mention in the official casualty lists for the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers man:

 

WEEKLY CASUALTY LIST, SEPTEMBER 24th, 1918

 

Barnard 43475 L-Cpl (Clapham, S.W.)

 

This is purely from the online indexing on the British Newspaper Archive website. I don't have access to the actual page, so I can't add anything more. Clapham is however, the "right" area for out man if he is from Tooting.

 

 

So, another piece of circumstantial evidence - and, if it is him, another event in his service history. The date of the wounding would probably be about 6 weeks before the publication, so maybe early August 1918.

 

 

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

On the above-mentioned casualty list is "Alexander 45005 A. P. (Seaton)"

 

This is 45005 Arthur Phillip Alexander - his records show that he was gassed on 14 August 1918. The war diary of the 1st Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers shows 93 men of "B" Company were evacuated after being affected by mustard gas poisoning following heavy gas shelling in St Jans Cappel valley on the night of the 13/14 August 1918.

 

 

Steve.

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, Stebie9173 said:

On the above-mentioned casualty list is "Alexander 45005 A. P. (Seaton)"

 

This is 45005 Arthur Phillip Alexander - his records show that he was gassed on 14 August 1918. The war diary of the 1st Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers shows 93 men of "B" Company were evacuated after being affected by mustard gas poisoning following heavy gas shelling in St Jans Cappel valley on the night of the 13/14 August 1918.

 

 

Steve.

 

Brilliant research Steve.  All that chimes with the information that Barnard was traumatised and suffered with mental illness to the extent that he took his own life.

[Stebie9173]

I have put together a summary of the movements of the John Barnard that we believe is the correct man. I hope!

 

43475 John Barnard, 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers

• Of Clapham, S.W. London
• Volunteered under the Derby Scheme in November/December 1915 and then posted to Army Reserve until mobilisation date
• Since he was born in 1884 and a married man he would have been in Group 37 in the Derby Scheme. He would have given notice to mobilise on 27 Apr 1916  and then mobilised on  29 May 1916
• Mobilised and posted to the the 13th (Kensington) Battalion of the London Regiment in late May/early June 1916 according to his known London Regiment number.
• Allocated No. 5876 in the 13th (Kensington) Battalion of the London Regiment
• Trained with 3/13th (Kensington) Battalion London Regiment (aka 13th Reserve Battalion of the London Regiment) at Winchester
• Embarked to France and Flanders via Southampton and Havre on 11 October 1916
• Attached to 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers on 30 October 1916
• Possibly re-numbered in the 13th (Kensington) Battalion of the London Regiment, approx. 492xxx
• Discharged from the Territorial Force in March 1917
• Re-enlisted "In the field" as a Private in the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers a day after discharge in March 1917 and posted to 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers
• Re-enlistement under the Authority of War Office letter 9/Gen No/6329 (DR 2) 18-11-1916
• Allocated Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, No. 43475
• 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers were one of four battalions in 87th Brigade of 29th Division.
• Battle of Arras from 9 April 1917 through to May 1917 (1st, 2nd and 3rd Battles of the Scarpe)
• Attack at Monchy le Preux east of Arras on 15 April 1917 - "B" Company in first wave
• Attack at Hook Trench near Infantry Hill to the east of Monchy le Preux on 19 May 1917 - "C" and "D" Company in main attack, "B" Company in Support
• Thirds Battle of Ypres in July 1917 to October 1917 (Langemarck {Jul to Sep}, Broodseinde {Oct} and Poelcapelle)
• 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers formed working parties during initial attack at Ypres on 31 July 1917
• 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers attacked German line west of Langemarck from the Steenbeek on 16 August 1917
• 86th and 88th Brigades of 29th Division attacked west of Poelcapelle on 9 October 1917; 87th Brigade were in Reserve
• Battle of Cambrai in November 1917
• 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers took part in the initial assault at Cambrai on 20 November 1917 advancing through Villers Plouich and crossing the St Quentin canal at Marcoing. Across the canal they formed up and assaulted the German trenches towards Masnieres and Rumilly-en-Cambresis.
• 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers were at Masnieres when the Germans counter attacked on 30 November 1917 and drove the British line back beyond the canal
• 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers transferred to 109th Brigade in 36th (Ulster) Division 5 February 1918
• German offensives on the Somme in March and April 1918
• 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers were at Hamel on 21 March 1918 when the Germans attacked and took the brunt of the attack in the Brigade area. They withdrew with 531 men missing. On 23 March 1918 the battalion were at Flavy and, having scrounged up some men from headquarters, numbered 100 men (out of about 750 starting strength) with no officers, the battalion being commanded by the senior NCO Company Quartermaster Sergeant Kerridge. Borrowing officers from the 9th Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers they were put back in the line at Flavy-le-Plessis. Over the next week they supported 2nd Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers until withdrawn to billets on 31 March 1918.
• In April 1918 the 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers moved to the Ypres sector
• 43475 Lance-Corporal J. Barnard suffered mustard gas poisoning whilst on a working party with "B" Company of 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers at St Jans Cappel on the night of 13/14 August 1918
• He was probably demobilised in early 1919 with 28 days paid leave before transfer to Reserve
• Transferred to Class Z Army Reserve in 1919
• Discharged upon the dissolution of Class Z Army Reserve 

 

Steve.

[FROGSMILE]

Steve, that is a staggering amount of information that you have drawn together in a very generous way for the original enquirer and it paints an evocative picture of this one man’s war from enlistment with the Derby Scheme to post the armistice.  Absolutely brilliant research.

 

For the benefit of the original enquirer I enclose images of the two cap badges that John Barnard probably wore during his service.  The 13th London Regiment (Kensington) were one of the more socially prestigious battalions of the London Territorial Force.  Notice the similar shape of their badge to the cap star of the Coldstream Guards.  A pure star in outline without a crown.  Interestingly a similar badge has just been selected for the new, Guards Company of the contemporary London Regiment. I think it very likely that the Kensington’s badge was inspiration for the design.

Edited 6 May , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Leachy]

2 hours ago, Stebie9173 said:

I have put together a summary of the movements of the John Barnard that we believe is the correct man. I hope!

 

43475 John Barnard, 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers

• Of Clapham, S.W. London
• Volunteered under the Derby Scheme in November/December 1915 and then posted to Army Reserve until mobilisation date
• Since he was born in 1884 and a married man he would have been in Group 37 in the Derby Scheme. He would have given notice to mobilise on 27 Apr 1916  and then mobilised on  29 May 1916
• Mobilised and posted to the the 13th (Kensington) Battalion of the London Regiment in late May/early June 1916 according to his known London Regiment number.
• Allocated No. 5876 in the 13th (Kensington) Battalion of the London Regiment
• Trained with 3/13th (Kensington) Battalion London Regiment (aka 13th Reserve Battalion of the London Regiment) at Winchester
• Embarked to France and Flanders via Southampton and Havre on 11 October 1916
• Attached to 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers on 30 October 1916
• Possibly re-numbered in the 13th (Kensington) Battalion of the London Regiment, approx. 492xxx
• Discharged from the Territorial Force in March 1917
• Re-enlisted "In the field" as a Private in the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers a day after discharge in March 1917 and posted to 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers
• Re-enlistement under the Authority of War Office letter 9/Gen No/6329 (DR 2) 18-11-1916
• Allocated Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, No. 43475
• 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers were one of four battalions in 87th Brigade of 29th Division.
• Battle of Arras from 9 April 1917 through to May 1917 (1st, 2nd and 3rd Battles of the Scarpe)
• Attack at Monchy le Preux east of Arras on 15 April 1917 - "B" Company in first wave
• Attack at Hook Trench near Infantry Hill to the east of Monchy le Preux on 19 May 1917 - "C" and "D" Company in main attack, "B" Company in Support
• Thirds Battle of Ypres in July 1917 to October 1917 (Langemarck {Jul to Sep}, Broodseinde {Oct} and Poelcapelle)
• 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers formed working parties during initial attack at Ypres on 31 July 1917
• 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers attacked German line west of Langemarck from the Steenbeek on 16 August 1917
• 86th and 88th Brigades of 29th Division attacked west of Poelcapelle on 9 October 1917; 87th Brigade were in Reserve
• Battle of Cambrai in November 1917
• 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers took part in the initial assault at Cambrai on 20 November 1917 advancing through Villers Plouich and crossing the St Quentin canal at Marcoing. Across the canal they formed up and assaulted the German trenches towards Masnieres and Rumilly-en-Cambresis.
• 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers were at Masnieres when the Germans counter attacked on 30 November 1917 and drove the British line back beyond the canal
• 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers transferred to 109th Brigade in 36th (Ulster) Division 5 February 1918
• German offensives on the Somme in March and April 1918
• 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers were at Hamel on 21 March 1918 when the Germans attacked and took the brunt of the attack in the Brigade area. They withdrew with 531 men missing. On 23 March 1918 the battalion were at Flavy and, having scrounged up some men from headquarters, numbered 100 men (out of about 750 starting strength) with no officers, the battalion being commanded by the senior NCO Company Quartermaster Sergeant Kerridge. Borrowing officers from the 9th Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers they were put back in the line at Flavy-le-Plessis. Over the next week they supported 2nd Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers until withdrawn to billets on 31 March 1918.
• In April 1918 the 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers moved to the Ypres sector
• 43475 Lance-Corporal J. Barnard suffered mustard gas poisoning whilst on a working party with "B" Company of 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers at St Jans Cappel on the night of 13/14 August 1918
• He was probably demobilised in early 1919 with 28 days paid leave before transfer to Reserve
• Transferred to Class Z Army Reserve in 1919
• Discharged upon the dissolution of Class Z Army Reserve 

 

Steve.

Hi Steve, 

apologies for a late reply. I’ve been replying throughout this thread to all concerned but I think I’ve been doing something wrong as my messages just disappear.

your kind efforts have been amazing as has everyone else. I was actually moved to tears reading it. Tragically  he took his own life in 1941 after suffering from mental health issues thereafter WW1. The family have always wondered what his war record was. There is some closure here explaining his life on the western front. 

we are eternally grateful to you and everyone else for your work. 

Kind regards

Dave

[Stebie9173]

We are always glad to be of help. 

 

 

Just to reiterate, we cannot be 100% sure that this is him but circumstantial evidence is strong:

 

• The Royal Inniskilling Cap badge is a very strong match for the picture you have posted
• The battle patch of the 29th Division is apparent which combined with the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers badge suggests the 1st Battalion of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers. Other Fusiliers battalions were in 29th Division within 86th Infantry Brigade but the long, curve shoulder title does not fit with their short first letters-only format (RF, LF, RDF or RMF)
• The date of issue of the number 5876 in the 13th London Regiment ties in to when we would expect a 30 year old married man to be mobilised under the Derby Scheme - i.e. May 1916
• The casualty list record from 1918 links this man with Clapham, only a stone's throw from Tooting.

 

From the evidence we have I think we are 90% sure that this is the right man, but there is always a slight doubt until something definitive is found - Absent Voters, pension record, medals held by the family, etc.

 

 

Steve.

Edited 6 May , 2019 by Stebie9173

[FROGSMILE]

I think we probably do have our man, but applaud your caution Steve.  It would be great if some kind forum member could help us with the absent voters list.  It also does sound as if he might have been in receipt of a ‘War Pension’, perhaps based on Shell Shock (Neurasthenia), although that is merely my speculation based on what the family know of his apparent suffering, and what we know the 1st Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers went through.

Edited 6 May , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

From the details on the 1941 probate calendar, (see attached) is seems 99.99% certain that the man who died was the man identified on the 1911 Census living at 42 Mandrake Road, Upper Tooting, with his wife Gwendoline, (Gwendoline Violet on the marriage record). The administration of the estate of the John Barnard who died 6th June 1941 at Alfriston, Sussex, (so most likely death the 57 year old John Barnard whose death was registered in the Hailsham District of Sussex in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1941), was granted to a Gwendolin Violet Barnard.

 

Hailsham Civil Registration District included the Civil Parish of Alfriston.

Source: https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/hailsham.html

 

Probate source: https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Barnard&yearOfDeath=1941&page=2#calendar

 

Still some slight wriggle room for co-incidence but looking increasingly unlikely.

 

With both husband, wife and whereabouts in 1941 known, there must be a good chance that they can be tracked down on the 1939 National Register, (available on FMP and Ancestry).

I’ve not seen the images available on Ancestry, but certainly those on FMP in nearly all the cases I’ve had cause to look up include the first column of the facing page. That column appears to cover any civil defence role – and in a very small number of cases of those for whom the column has an entry it also references previous military service.

The Register will also give a date of birth.

 

On 05/05/2019 at 17:58, Stebie9173 said:

WEEKLY CASUALTY LIST, SEPTEMBER 24th, 1918

 

Barnard 43475 L-Cpl (Clapham, S.W.)

 

This is purely from the online indexing on the British Newspaper Archive website. I don't have access to the actual page, so I can't add anything more. Clapham is however, the "right" area for out man if he is from Tooting.

 

On 05/05/2019 at 18:18, Stebie9173 said:

 The war diary of the 1st Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers shows 93 men of "B" Company were evacuated after being affected by mustard gas poisoning following heavy gas shelling in St Jans Cappel valley on the night of the 13/14 August 1918.

 

In my experience of the wording of casualty lists published in the newspapers from 1916 onwards, the place referred to is actually that of the next of kin, rather than the actual soldier. Fortunately in this case it should make make no difference if the soldier is the man identified from the civil record as Gwendolin(e) the wife is almost certainly the next of kin.

 

Even if the AVL for Wandsworth is not on line, Gwendoline, (birth registered in the Haverford West District in Q1 of 1887 as Gwendolen Violet Peskett) would have been eligible to vote on age grounds, (over 30), under the 1918 Representation of the People Act, as long as she fulfilled the property requirements. Thus the 1918 electoral register itself would be worth a check to see if it puts her in Clapham. Of course she could have moved between the preparation of the 1918 Electoral Register in the Spring of 1918 and her husbands wounding in August 1918, but the odds are more likely she didn’t even given the high rental war time inflation in London.

 

Each one of these is a small advance, but it increasingly closes out the possibility of the second man identified from the service medal rolls.

 

Finally, if he took his own life, there would have been a coroners inquest. The information given at the inquest might shed some light on his military career. I only have access to the British Newspaper Archive when I’m in the Library, but a quick check of the publicly available search facility gives me at least 1 report available there. What can be seen confirms it’s the same man as on the Probate record.

 

Hope that helps,

 

Peter

 

BTW – I have asked before, but is there any chance that is a wound stripe on his left cuff, as that might date the picture as potentially post August 1918. Would be good to see a crop of the higher contrast picture.

Edited 6 May , 2019 by PRC
Typo

[Stebie9173]

I have looked at the standard Electoral Registers a bit today. There is a John Barnard at 42 Mandrake Road, Tooting on the 1914 Roll. The 1915 Roll has no-one at that address on the Roll.  I can't see a register for 1916 or 1917. In 1918 42 Mandrake Road is occupied by a family called Rawlings so they have gone from there by then.

 

There are several John Barnards in Wandsworth in the Electoral rolls:

1. 1918 Electoral Roll: John Barnard, 11 Louvaine Road, St John Ward, also a Hermione Maria Barnard; not absent per roll; not absent
2. 1918 Electoral Roll: John Barnard, 42 Burmeister Road, SW17, Central (Springfield) Ward; "absent voter" per Electoral Roll; a Jack Tomkins at same address; AVL shows him as P/10683 Lance-Corporal Military Foot Police 
3. 1918 Electoral Roll: John Edward Barnard, 70 Tooting High Street, not absent, no-one else shown at address
4. 1918 Electoral Roll: John Ebenezer Barnard, 5 Gonsalva Road, SW8, Clapham NW Ward; also Lucy Alice Barnard

and

1. 1919 Electoral Roll: John Barnard, 11 Louvaine Road, St John Ward, also a Hermione Maria Barnard; not absent per roll
2. 1919 Electoral Roll: John Barnard, 42 Burmeister Road, SW17, Central (Springfield) Ward; "absent voter" per Electoral Roll; a Jack Tomkins at same address; AVL shows him as P/10683 Lance-Corporal Military Foot Police 
3. 1919 Electoral Roll: John Edward Barnard, 70 Tooting High Street, not absent, also Adeline Ada Barnard {I suspect Adeline Ada is a sister of this man}
4. 1919 Electoral Roll: John Ebenezer Barnard, 5 Gonsalva Road, SW8, Clapham NW Ward; also Lucy Alice Barnard

 

1, 3 & 4 don't have matching spouses names (or mothers, if that is the case). No. 2 has a Service Records - he is 25 years and 1 month old in December 1915 (hence born about 1890) and his next of kin is shown as his mother - Mrs Elizabeth Barnard. The online tree I can see show the mother of your John Barnard (1884-1941) as Annie Blake. There is nothing on his records to match with your man.

 

 

I cannot see a Gwendoline / Gwen Barnard on the London AVLs at all.

 

 

The 1918 AVL starts here on Ancestry:

 

1918 Wandsworth AVL

 

The 1919 here:

 

1919 Wandsworth AVL

 

 

There is a limit to my dedication and manually wading through the AVL is over that line!

 

 

Steve.

 

[FROGSMILE]

Great work by Peter and Steve, it has certainly advanced matters I feel.

 

I wonder if Gwendoline might have returned to her own family’s home place, perhaps outside London, whilst her husband was away.

Edited 6 May , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Stebie9173]

Gwendoline's father died before the war. Her mother Anna Maria Peskett (nee Crook) was at 77 King's Avenue, Clapham SW2 from 1918 to 1921 (Electoral Rolls). She moved to Whitstable with sister by 1939. There are no other electors at her home address in those years.

 

 

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Since he is wearing 29th Division insignia then the date of picture (assuming he is the right military identity) must be between October 1916 (when joining 1st Inniskilling Fusiliers in 29th Division) and February 1918 (when they moved to 36th Division).

 

 

Steve.

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Stebie9173 said:

I have looked at the standard Electoral Registers a bit today. There is a John Barnard at 42 Mandrake Road, Tooting on the 1914 Roll. The 1915 Roll has no-one at that address on the Roll.  I can't see a register for 1916 or 1917. In 1918 42 Mandrake Road is occupied by a family called Rawlings so they have gone from there by then.

 

There are several John Barnards in Wandsworth in the Electoral rolls:

1. 1918 Electoral Roll: John Barnard, 11 Louvaine Road, St John Ward, also a Hermione Maria Barnard; not absent per roll; not absent
2. 1918 Electoral Roll: John Barnard, 42 Burmeister Road, SW17, Central (Springfield) Ward; "absent voter" per Electoral Roll; a Jack Tomkins at same address; AVL shows him as P/10683 Lance-Corporal Military Foot Police 
3. 1918 Electoral Roll: John Edward Barnard, 70 Tooting High Street, not absent, no-one else shown at address
4. 1918 Electoral Roll: John Ebenezer Barnard, 5 Gonsalva Road, SW8, Clapham NW Ward; also Lucy Alice Barnard

There is a limit to my dedication and manually wading through the AVL is over that line!

 

Production of the Electoral Registers was suspended in the UK for 1916 & 1917, so you'll never find those for any search - take it from one who found out the hard way.

If the right man has been found from the birth, marriage and census civil records then there was no middle name.

 

Totally agree on the last point - the AVL's are not for the faint hearted even when you know the address where somewhere was living.

 

22 minutes ago, Stebie9173 said:

Gwendoline's father died before the war. Her mother Anna Maria Peskett (nee Crook) was at 77 King's Avenue, Clapham SW2 from 1918 to 1921 (Electoral Rolls). She moved to

Whitstable with sister by 1939. There are no other electors at her home address in those years.

 

If she had moved back in with her mother then my understanding is that she would not have been entitled to vote. The property rules seem to have been very similar to those applied to men before 1918 and so non-householders lost the vote.

 

18 minutes ago, Stebie9173 said:

Since he is wearing 29th Division insignia then the date of picture (assuming he is the right military identity) must be between October 1916 (when joining 1st Inniskilling Fusiliers in 29th Division) and February 1918 (when they moved to 36th Division).

 

Mea culpa - getting carried away:-)

 

Thank-you Steve. You've not just gone the extra mile but what looks like the extra ten miles :-)

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Leachy]

1 hour ago, Stebie9173 said:

I have looked at the standard Electoral Registers a bit today. There is a John Barnard at 42 Mandrake Road, Tooting on the 1914 Roll. The 1915 Roll has no-one at that address on the Roll.  I can't see a register for 1916 or 1917. In 1918 42 Mandrake Road is occupied by a family called Rawlings so they have gone from there by then.

 

There are several John Barnards in Wandsworth in the Electoral rolls:

1. 1918 Electoral Roll: John Barnard, 11 Louvaine Road, St John Ward, also a Hermione Maria Barnard; not absent per roll; not absent
2. 1918 Electoral Roll: John Barnard, 42 Burmeister Road, SW17, Central (Springfield) Ward; "absent voter" per Electoral Roll; a Jack Tomkins at same address; AVL shows him as P/10683 Lance-Corporal Military Foot Police 
3. 1918 Electoral Roll: John Edward Barnard, 70 Tooting High Street, not absent, no-one else shown at address
4. 1918 Electoral Roll: John Ebenezer Barnard, 5 Gonsalva Road, SW8, Clapham NW Ward; also Lucy Alice Barnard

and

1. 1919 Electoral Roll: John Barnard, 11 Louvaine Road, St John Ward, also a Hermione Maria Barnard; not absent per roll
2. 1919 Electoral Roll: John Barnard, 42 Burmeister Road, SW17, Central (Springfield) Ward; "absent voter" per Electoral Roll; a Jack Tomkins at same address; AVL shows him as P/10683 Lance-Corporal Military Foot Police 
3. 1919 Electoral Roll: John Edward Barnard, 70 Tooting High Street, not absent, also Adeline Ada Barnard {I suspect Adeline Ada is a sister of this man}
4. 1919 Electoral Roll: John Ebenezer Barnard, 5 Gonsalva Road, SW8, Clapham NW Ward; also Lucy Alice Barnard

 

1, 3 & 4 don't have matching spouses names (or mothers, if that is the case). No. 2 has a Service Records - he is 25 years and 1 month old in December 1915 (hence born about 1890) and his next of kin is shown as his mother - Mrs Elizabeth Barnard. The online tree I can see show the mother of your John Barnard (1884-1941) as Annie Blake. There is nothing on his records to match with your man.

 

 

I cannot see a Gwendoline / Gwen Barnard on the London AVLs at all.

 

 

The 1918 AVL starts here on Ancestry:

 

1918 Wandsworth AVL

 

The 1919 here:

 

1919 Wandsworth AVL

 

 

There is a limit to my dedication and manually wading through the AVL is over that line!

 

 

Steve.

 

Hi Steve, 

thanks for your commitment, I’m amazed you’ve hung in this long. 100% our man is mandrake road. I am aware that they ended up in chalvington,  East Sussex after the war and then alfriston. Thanks to and the other guys my father in law can get stuck into voters etc 

what about my grandad though! We haven’t started on him yet 😳🙃

cheers 

43 minutes ago, Stebie9173 said:

Since he is wearing 29th Division insignia then the date of picture (assuming he is the right military identity) must be between October 1916 (when joining 1st Inniskilling Fusiliers in 29th Division) and February 1918 (when they moved to 36th Division).

 

 

Steve.

1917 on leave I am told Steve 

[Leachy]

16 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

Production of the Electoral Registers was suspended in the UK for 1916 & 1917, so you'll never find those for any search - take it from one who found out the hard way.

If the right man has been found from the birth, marriage and census civil records then there was no middle name.

 

Totally agree on the last point - the AVL's are not for the faint hearted even when you know the address where somewhere was living.

 

 

If she had moved back in with her mother then my understanding is that she would not have been entitled to vote. The property rules seem to have been very similar to those applied to men before 1918 and so non-householders lost the vote.

 

 

Mea culpa - getting carried away:-)

 

Thank-you Steve. You've not just gone the extra mile but what looks like the extra ten miles :-)

 

Cheers,

Peter

Many thanks peter, 

thanks to all you guys we can confirm it’s the right man. 

Mandrake Road  he was , all those family names are correct. We are really moved by everyone’s work. We are now planning a trip to France to retrace his footsteps. The village of alfriston is also planning a 100 year remembrance and my father in law is from there. He will be repeating all this history a million times over. 

Thank you so much 

Dave 

[FROGSMILE]

Very satisfactory work, especially by Steve and Peter and Pat.  John Barnard’s story has been brought out of the shadows and into the light.  Excellent teamwork methinks.

Edited 6 May , 2019 by FROGSMILE