Leachy Posted 3 May , 2019 Share Posted 3 May , 2019 Hi all, my father in law is desperate to trace his grandfather called John Barnard. We have the photos as shown some of which have been enhanced a bit with a red outline to gauge size etc but we still can’t find one that matches. He lived in tooting at or around the outbreak of the Great War but ended up in alfriston in East Sussex. Sussex regret. Cab badge doesn’t seem to fit. Grateful for any ideas please. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 3 May , 2019 Share Posted 3 May , 2019 Looks to me like it could be a fusilier cap badge . The man was a Lance Corporal at the time of the picture but, as it was an appointment and not a rank, the paperwork often just shows as Private. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 3 May , 2019 Share Posted 3 May , 2019 8 minutes ago, Leachy said: Hi all, my father in law is desperate to trace his grandfather called John Barnard. We have the photos as shown some of which have been enhanced a bit with a red outline to gauge size etc but we still can’t find one that matches. He lived in tooting at or around the outbreak of the Great War but ended up in alfriston in East Sussex. Sussex regret. Cab badge doesn’t seem to fit. Grateful for any ideas please. Thanks Was he John Edward Barnard by any chance ? When was he born ? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin DavidOwen Posted 3 May , 2019 Admin Share Posted 3 May , 2019 Welcome to the forum Leachy I have edited your title in the hope it will attract some more attention. Good luck with your research David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 3 May , 2019 Share Posted 3 May , 2019 (edited) Definitely a Fusilier regiment, Royal Inniskilling’s I think from the apparently curved shoulder title. He also has a 29th Division cloth badge (aka flash) on his upper arm. Many Englishmen served as pre-war regulars in the Irish regiments and once casualty rates set in, the lack of conscription In Ireland meant that more such men had to be recruited to replace Irish battle casualties. Edited 6 May , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leachy Posted 3 May , 2019 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2019 2 hours ago, ss002d6252 said: Looks to me like it could be a fusilier cap badge . The man was a Lance Corporal at the time of the picture but, as it was an appointment and not a rank, the paperwork often just shows as Private. Craig Hi Craig, appreciate your help. He was just called John Barnard according to his birth certificate on 18/3/1884 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leachy Posted 3 May , 2019 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2019 1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said: Definitely a Fusiliers regiment, Royal Inniskilling’s, I think from the apparently curved shoulder title. He also has a 29th Division cloth badge (aka flash) on his upper arm. Many Englishmen served as pre-war regulars in the Irish regiments and once casualty rates set in the lack of conscription In Ireland meant that more such men had to be recruited to replace Irish battle casualties. Hi, thanks so much for that. I confess I saw that cap badge and it looked good for me too but ruled it out as it was an Irish regiment and he’s from London. But you reckon it’s possible that he would have joined them. Seems odd bearing in mind all the London choices he would have had but???? Great work tho and appreciate the photos that look bang on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 3 May , 2019 Share Posted 3 May , 2019 Quote Seems odd bearing in mind all the London choices he would have had but???? As the war went on choice went out the window and a man went where he was sent. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leachy Posted 3 May , 2019 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2019 2 hours ago, DavidOwen said: Welcome to the forum Leachy I have edited your title in the hope it will attract some more attention. Good luck with your research David Thanks David. You can tell I’m a novice on this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leachy Posted 3 May , 2019 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2019 1 minute ago, ss002d6252 said: As the war went on choice went out the window and a man went where he was sent. Craig I see, makes sense. Thanks Craig. Any ideas how I can confirm him as in that regiment at all. Tragic really as he suffered with mental illness / she’ll shock etc after the war and shot himself in 1941 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leachy Posted 3 May , 2019 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2019 I think I have just found him on the Inniskilling regiment museum site but it’s needs money confirm properly. Fantastic. Thanks so much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 3 May , 2019 Share Posted 3 May , 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Leachy said: I think I have just found him on the Inniskilling regiment museum site but it’s needs money confirm properly. Fantastic. Thanks so much There are people here who might be able to look up his medal index card (MIC) for you. Most of the genealogy websites have them in digitised form. MICs don’t give much information but they confirm Regiment, rank, serial number and medal entitlement. Edited 3 May , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 3 May , 2019 Share Posted 3 May , 2019 2 hours ago, Leachy said: I think I have just found him on the Inniskilling regiment museum site but it’s needs money confirm properly. Fantastic. Thanks so much I don't know if it's him, but there is one MIC (available to view free on Ancestry) that seems to match: Link Of course, there may be others that I can't find, or who weren't entitled to medals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave66 Posted 3 May , 2019 Share Posted 3 May , 2019 (edited) There's a medal,index card here on ancestry for a John Barnard, listed as serving in both the Royal fusiliers, and the inniskilling fusiliers. https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=PIv6&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=medalrolls&gsfn=John&gsln=Barnard&gsfn_x=NP_NN&gsln_x=1&cp=11&new=1&rank=1&uidh=l37&redir=false&msT=1&gss=angs-d&pcat=39&fh=67&h=1191928&recoff=&fsk=MDs2MDsyMA-61--61-&bsk=&pgoff=&ml_rpos=68 Dave. Edit....Too late, same chap though. Edited 3 May , 2019 by Dave66 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 3 May , 2019 Share Posted 3 May , 2019 Private Royal Fusiliers / Munster Fusiliers MIC at National Archives: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D1175510 Private then Acting Corporal 2nd Lancashire Fusiliers at National Archives: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D1175515 May be possible to make something useful out by using the preview option and zooming in. There are two more John Barnards listed but they have middle names or initial. sJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 3 May , 2019 Share Posted 3 May , 2019 7 minutes ago, seaJane said: Private Royal Fusiliers / Munster Fusiliers MIC at National Archives: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D1175510 Private then Acting Corporal 2nd Lancashire Fusiliers at National Archives: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D1175515 The RMF I think is a transcription error, but I can see how they read it that way. The Lancs. Fus man's card can be seen (free) here: Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 3 May , 2019 Share Posted 3 May , 2019 3 hours ago, Leachy said: He was just called John Barnard according to his birth certificate on 18/3/1884 On the 1911 Census of England and Wales there is a 27 year old John Barnard, a financial clerk, born, Epsom, Surrey, who was recorded as the married head of the household at 42 Mandrake Road, Upper Tooting. He lives there with his wife of 5 years, Gwendoline Barnard, (aged 23, born Milford Haven, Pembroke) and their two children, Alec, (4) and Geffrey, (2) - both born Clapham. The marriage of a John Barnard, (so no middle names) to a Gwendoline Violet Peskett was recorded in the Wandworth District in Q4 of 1906. The births of children Alec Jack, (Q4, 1906) and Geoffrey Blake, (Q4, 1908) were registered in the Wandsworth District with mothers' maiden name shown as Peskett and "Pessket" respectively. There are only two other births from the period that might be children of John and Gwendoline - Violet E Barnard, mothers maiden name Peskett, Wandsworth District, Q2, 1912 and Peter. D. Barnard, mothers' maiden name Peskett, Hailsham District of Sussex in Q3 of 1923. Reason for going through all that is the confirmation of which regiment and service number relate to him may come from the Absent Voters List for the parliamentary constituency where he was normally resident in 1918 /1919. For how to go about this see:- https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/ Hope that helps, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Atkins Posted 3 May , 2019 Share Posted 3 May , 2019 (edited) Medal rolls for the Royal Fusiliers and inniskillings man gives his battalions: 5873 Pte John Barnard 13 R. Fus. 43475 1 Roy. Innis. Fus. Ditto the Lancashire Fusilier: 6568 Pte John Barnard 3rd Lancs Fusrs 2nd Lancs Fusrs act/Cpl He has a Silver War Badge record: enlisted 10.10.1914, discharged 11.12.1917 aged 47, KR para 39 xvi Think first chap more likely given LF's age and discharge, perhaps? Only guessing of course. Pat. Edited 3 May , 2019 by Pat Atkins Add Lancs Fus info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 3 May , 2019 Share Posted 3 May , 2019 (edited) An absolutely brilliant and generous response from everyone to the original poster. Very kind. I suspect that as an inexperienced layman he will need a summary. My guess, subject to some research via the absent voters list as proposed above, is that the John Barnard we seek initially served with a war-raised ‘Service Battalion’ of the Royal Fusiliers that was reduced by attrition to an ineffective strength, subsequently broken up, and then drafts sent to make up the numbers of other battalions, including a regular battalion of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, whence Barnard was sent. This was an especially common incidence after the German Offensive of March 1918. Edited 3 May , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 3 May , 2019 Share Posted 3 May , 2019 If it is the Inniskilling man, then possibly part of a draft, particularly as he doesn’t appear to have entered a Theatre of War before the end of 1915 – only the Victory Medal and British War Medal are shown on his Medal Index Card. The 13th Battalion Royal Fusiliers landed in France in July 1915 so if he went out with them then he would have qualified for the 1915 Star. Looking at nearby Inniskilling numbers 43470 Private Sidney Bird was previously 5421 Royal Fusiliers 43471 Private Guy Farden was previously 5523 Royal Fusiliers 43472 Private Horatio Wolstencroft was previously 492599 Royal Fusiliers 43473 Private Laurence Reavell was previously 5818 Royal Fusiliers 43474 Private Henry Bone was previously 492730 Royal Fusiliers. 43476 Serjeant Fred Hornegold was previously 4141 Royal Fusiliers So if service \ discharge \ pension records for any of them have survived then it may give some insight into when and how John ended up serving with the Inniskillings. BTW – the Catalogue entry at the National Archive shows him as Royal Munster Fusiliers – probably because the middle word on the card is just a scrawl – but I’m taking it from what has been posted that he does actually appear on the related Inniskilling Service Medal Roll. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D1175510 In the absence of surviving records the Medal Rolls might also confirm which battalion of the Royal Fusiliers the above soldiers came from, as the 13th Royal Fusiliers was not one of those disbanded in either the British Army re-organisation at the start of 1918 or reduced to a cadre by the German Spring Offensives. On a different point, it may just be me but particularly in the higher contrast picture is that just the light catching a crease on the left cuff or is it a wound stripe? Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 3 May , 2019 Share Posted 3 May , 2019 13 minutes ago, PRC said: the Catalogue entry at the National Archive shows him as Royal Munster Fusiliers That would be one of the ones I posted. I just went by the transcript - should evidently have investigated the preview Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Atkins Posted 4 May , 2019 Share Posted 4 May , 2019 Quick look on medal rolls and SWB records shows: 43472 Pte Wolstencroft was previously 13th Royal Fusiliers 43473 Pte Reavell was previously 2nd Royal Fusiliers and enlisted 10.22.1915 43474 L/Cpl Bone was previously 13th Royal Fusiliers 43476 Sgt Hornegold was previously 1st Royal Fusiliers 43478 Pte Veysay was previously 1st Royal Fusiliers The men immediately around John Barnard's Inniskillings number almost all came from 13th or 1st Bn Royal Fusiliers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 May , 2019 Share Posted 4 May , 2019 (edited) Excellent detective work Pat (and Peter) you seem to have narrowed down the likely men sent as a particular draft from 13th RF to the 1st Royal Inniskillings, and much earlier in the war than I’d guessed. I wonder what the circumstances were, whether they were volunteers or merely nominated at short notice by their unit. Edited 4 May , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 4 May , 2019 Share Posted 4 May , 2019 25 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Excellent detective work Pat (and Peter) you seem to have narrowed down the likely men sent as a particular draft from 13th RF to the 1st Royal Inniskillings, and much earlier in the war than I’d guessed. I wonder what the circumstances were, whether they were volunteers or merely nominated at short notice by their unit. I wouldn't want to speculate too much - hopefully there are some surviving records for at least one of the names on the list that might give a better clue. Meanwhile it's probably worth bearing in mind that the 1st Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers were in the 29th Division until February 1918. In the same Division were the 2nd Royal Fusiliers. So a draft of recovered wounded and sick, possibly mixed with trained new recruits, might have been sent out from the Royal Fusiliers Depot intended for the 2nd Royal Fusiliers. However when they reached the Infantry Base Depot that supplied men to the 29th Division, they could well have been re-directed to any unit most urgently in need of bringing up to strength. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 May , 2019 Share Posted 4 May , 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, PRC said: I wouldn't want to speculate too much - hopefully there are some surviving records for at least one of the names on the list that might give a better clue. Meanwhile it's probably worth bearing in mind that the 1st Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers were in the 29th Division until February 1918. In the same Division were the 2nd Royal Fusiliers. So a draft of recovered wounded and sick, possibly mixed with trained new recruits, might have been sent out from the Royal Fusiliers Depot intended for the 2nd Royal Fusiliers. However when they reached the Infantry Base Depot that supplied men to the 29th Division, they could well have been re-directed to any unit most urgently in need of bringing up to strength. Cheers, Peter Yes, that makes a lot of sense Peter, and chimes with my understanding of the typical workings of IBDs in France & Flanders. Edited 4 May , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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