Trench box Periscopes

[GRANVILLE]

Can anyone point me in the direction of a previous thread on the subject of the trench box periscope - in particular when they were actually devised and by whom etc etc. Any photos showing them being used would also be appreciated.

David 

[Michael Haselgrove]

David,

If you do a search for "periscopes" quite a lot of threads come up.  I don't have time to go through them but here is one that might interest you:

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/185418-trench-periscopes-issued-or-not/?tab=comments#comment-1804348

In case it is of interest "Dominating the Enemy - War in the Trenches 1914-1918" by Anthony Saunders has a useful chapter on the subject generally.  Specifically, the author states that the Trenchscope Co. held a patent (GB12,523/15) for the No.9 Mk II, and possibly for the No.9 Mk I.  The Trenchscope Co. was owned by Sydney Soul and Charles Howe and the application for the patent was filed at the end of August 1915.

Regards,

Michael.

 

[GRANVILLE]

Thanks Michael. I have done a bit of a trawl through the various postings but couldn't find a deal that helped to pinpoint just when the box periscope made its first appearance, so your info is very helpful.

 

David 

[Pete_C]

Hi David

This IWM photo (I don't have the reference number) packed full of interesting detail, not least the box periscope, comes to mind.

 

Pete

 

 

 

[GRANVILLE]

Not seen this one before Pete - thanks for posting. Particularly interesting in that it just about shows the method by which the box is supported i.e. there is some sort of bracket stuck into the trench side and the bottom of the scope has a peg which is able to socket into it so it is supported and can also swivel.

David

[MikB]

He appears to have a couple of rounds stuck in his sling band, and the rifle's cocked, presumably with one up the spout.

 

But it seems to me he's taking a real risk if he sees something and decides to take a shot - you'd expect any periscope projecting above the parapet to be under concentrated surveillance by enemy snipers.

[GRANVILLE]

4 hours ago, MikB said:

He appears to have a couple of rounds stuck in his sling band, and the rifle's cocked, presumably with one up the spout.

 

But it seems to me he's taking a real risk if he sees something and decides to take a shot - you'd expect any periscope projecting above the parapet to be under concentrated surveillance by enemy snipers.

Either as suggested or their is strong possibility of imminent attack and he is actively on look-out for any signs of movement?

David

[Sepoy]

4 hours ago, MikB said:

He appears to have a couple of rounds stuck in his sling band, and the rifle's cocked, presumably with one up the spout.

 

But it seems to me he's taking a real risk if he sees something and decides to take a shot - you'd expect any periscope projecting above the parapet to be under concentrated surveillance by enemy snipers.

It is also interesting to see that the rifle is a .303 SMLE No1 Mk1 with a floating charger guide fitted to the bolt head. These were not in regular use as a front line weapon during WW1, having been superceded by the .303 SMLE No1 MkIII and MkIII* rifles which were fitted with charger bridges.
I wonder if this was a posed photograph???

Sepoy

[MikB]

51 minutes ago, Sepoy said:

It is also interesting to see that the rifle is a .303 SMLE No1 Mk1 with a floating charger guide fitted to the bolt head. These were not in regular use as a front line weapon during WW1, having been superceded by the .303 SMLE No1 MkIII and MkIII* rifles which were fitted with charger bridges.
I wonder if this was a posed photograph???

Sepoy

I didn't know the specific variant, but could see from the volley sight dial, the windage-adjustable rearsight and the odd detail on the bolthead, that it wasn't a III or III*. The rounds aren't clear enough to tell, but I wonder if they're Mk.VIs, nose-down. Were peacetime-assembled rifles kept for sharpshooting, even before scope sights became available? The rifle *looks* well looked-after. That's why I was wondering if he's a sniper scanning for a target. I don't see how we'd ever know if it's posed, without other evidence.

[JMB1943]

At some point in the war, Infantry in the trenches were required to have Bayonets fixed if the enemy was within 300 yds distance.

He clearly does not, so well may be a posed photo.

 

Regards,

JMB

[Sepoy]

2 hours ago, MikB said:

I didn't know the specific variant, but could see from the volley sight dial, the windage-adjustable rearsight and the odd detail on the bolthead, that it wasn't a III or III*. The rounds aren't clear enough to tell, but I wonder if they're Mk.VIs, nose-down. Were peacetime-assembled rifles kept for sharpshooting, even before scope sights became available? The rifle *looks* well looked-after. That's why I was wondering if he's a sniper scanning for a target. I don't see how we'd ever know if it's posed, without other evidence.

It is a quite a few years since I had anything to do with firearms, but I think that the ammunition in the photo is .303 MkVI round nosed, rather than MkVII pointed, which (with my limited knowledge) makes it unlikely to be used for sniping. There is also no signs of a telescopic sight fitted so I doubt he was a sniper.

SMLE No1 MkIs were very much a second line weapon issued to units like the ASC, etc. Examples that I have had handled showed signs of having the woodwork bound so they could be used for grenade launching, showing how they were later used.
Sepoy

[GRANVILLE]

I think it's also worth noting he is using the early leather kit. If it was a staged photo - presumably after the introduction of the SBR, you would have thought he would have been making use of '08 pattern webbing?

David

[Chasemuseum]

Additionally the water bottle appears to be the aluminium model which was only issued in very limited numbers.

There seem to be too many items of obsolete equipment for front line service, leaving a very strong suspicion that this was a staged representation at a training facility in the UK to illustrate "life in the trenches"

Cheers

Ross

 

[MikB]

The cover photo of my copy of Hesketh-Prichard's 'Sniping In France' shows a sniper operating with an iron-sighted earlier model Lee Enfield (possibly an MLE?) in autumn of 1915, and it's reasonable to guess he'd be shooting the ammunition it was calibrated for, if he could get it. There's an obsolete pair of Galilean field glasses in the pic, and a periscope in the background.

 

I've been under the impression for a long time that the logistical and economic challenges presented by the war meant that obsolete equipment would remain in use with units and individuals holding it for as long as it remained functional.

Edited 22 April , 2019 by MikB

[Dave1418]

11 hours ago, Chasemuseum said:

Additionally the water bottle appears to be the aluminium model which was only issued in very limited numbers.

 

Cheers

Ross

 

Hi

I’m of the opinion that it’s a front line image, general condition of the “trench “ the angle that the image was taken at an the overall wear and tear of the soldier and his kit. Looking at an old thread from Joe Sweeney they aluminium water bottle came into the list of changes on 27th February 1915 and there are numerous images of them throughout the war. The rifle is a little bit unusual as a mk1 but never say never and I’d say that it’s very difficult due to the quality to make out the exact shape of the rounds head.

regards

 

 

[GRANVILLE]

If by chance anyone has a better photo of the particular bracket used to fix a support into the trench side, I would be very grateful. Has anyone ever field-dug one up and not understood what it was?

David

[gronksmil]

Great photograph,have you noticed his breech cover by his knee.I like the waterbottle,is that the dismounted service 1915 type with the ribbing?

[Pete_C]

The photo is from the IWM archive, reference Q10688. The description reads, “ A sentry uses a box periscope in a trench on the 36th Division Front, near Essigny, 7th February 1918”. The photographer was Second Lieutenant Thomas Keith Aitken.

Plentiful photographic evidence exists showing Pattern 1914 leather equipment worn in front line service right through to the end of the war, with whatever pattern water bottle it was issued with. The only slightly incongruous item is the Mk 1* SMLE which is seldom seen beyond 1916. It’s cocked with safety catch engaged and two MkVI rounds wedged in the leather sling keeper. Debate has raged in an earlier thread as to whether they were ‘rounds of last resort’ or simply there to keep the sling taught.

The subject may have posed in the moment for the photo but he’s doing so in a front line trench on active service and I can see no convincing evidence that shows otherwise. 

 

Good spot on the breech cover - any ideas on the tin / bottle type object laying on top of it ?

 

Pete

[Dave66]

17 hours ago, GRANVILLE said:

If by chance anyone has a better photo of the particular bracket used to fix a support into the trench side, I would be very grateful. Has anyone ever field-dug one up and not understood what it was?

David

There's an image of the periscope and spike here...http://www.wdmilitaria.co.uk/shop.php

Item No 26424

 

Dave.

[GRANVILLE]

7 hours ago, Dave66 said:

There's an image of the periscope and spike here...http://www.wdmilitaria.co.uk/shop.php

Item No 26424

 

Dave.

A brilliant spot Dave - just what I needed and tells me what to keep my eye out for. Cheers.

 

David

[Dave66]

4 minutes ago, GRANVILLE said:

A brilliant spot Dave - just what I needed and tells me what to keep my eye out for. Cheers.

 

David

👍...it was just a case or remembering where I saw it!

 

Dave

[GRANVILLE]

On 20/04/2019 at 09:14, Michael Haselgrove said:

David,

If you do a search for "periscopes" quite a lot of threads come up.  I don't have time to go through them but here is one that might interest you:

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/185418-trench-periscopes-issued-or-not/?tab=comments#comment-1804348

In case it is of interest "Dominating the Enemy - War in the Trenches 1914-1918" by Anthony Saunders has a useful chapter on the subject generally.  Specifically, the author states that the Trenchscope Co. held a patent (GB12,523/15) for the No.9 Mk II, and possibly for the No.9 Mk I.  The Trenchscope Co. was owned by Sydney Soul and Charles Howe and the application for the patent was filed at the end of August 1915.

Regards,

Michael.

 

Just to try and pin this subject down, it seems to me that the periscope - in particular the box type, did not come into being until the advert of WW1. It presumably had not been required until them. Do others concur with this assessment?

David  

[Michael Haselgrove]

Hi David,

Here is a website that gives some brief detail of the history of periscopes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periscope

You will see that the history of periscopes dates back a long time and if your interest in periscopes is confined to the No.9 box periscope I think you will have to research the patent I referred to above.  I don't know what aspect of periscopes the patent covered and it is not clear from the book I referred to whether the patent covered the Mk I and well as the Mk II versions of the No.9.

Regards,

Michael. 

[GRANVILLE]

Cheers Michael, I did know that periscopes go back before the war i.e. the submarine variant, but I was more interested to try and ascertain if (as I suspect) they only made their appearance in land warfare as a result of the trenches created in the early part of WW1. You can see by the simplistic way in which the box periscope was put together, and was done so hurriedly so as to meet a pressing need, which tends to suggest to me that there was nothing in existence, suitable for widespread use, prior to the outbreak of the war.   

David

[4thGordons]

On 21/04/2019 at 09:03, Sepoy said:

It is also interesting to see that the rifle is a .303 SMLE No1 Mk1 with a floating charger guide fitted to the bolt head. These were not in regular use as a front line weapon during WW1, having been superceded by the .303 SMLE No1 MkIII and MkIII* rifles which were fitted with charger bridges.
I wonder if this was a posed photograph???

Sepoy

 

Sorry but I am going to disagree.  Whilst this may be a staged picture I do not think the rifle is unusual.

 

ShtLE MkIs (also MkI*, and MkI***  the "No 1" terminology was not introduced until the 1920s -  are actually very common in wartime front line photographs and show up in pictures all through the war. As far as I am aware they were in regular front line service throughout - they can certainly be spotted in Somme pics and Malins footage (check They Shall Not Grow Old) , even CLLEs were still very common in front line service on the Western Front up until the Spring of 1916 and ShtLEs of all marks were more recent than those. Several published collections of photos show ShtLEs and CLLEs in service next to each other in the same units (eg Jon Cooksey's Flanders 1915)

 

Indeed the MkI*** was not approved until just before the outbreak of the war (April 1914 for land service) and after the outbreak for Naval Service (Aug 1915) The MkI*** had been resighted for MkVII ammunition.

 

I don't think there is any way of telling from this photo if the rifle is a MkI, MkI* or MkI*** (or even some of the scarcer Cond. Marks) - I don't find it at all anachronistic in this image.

Obviously based on production wastage/attrition etc and use there would, all things being equal, have been fewer early rifles in circulation later in the war but I am not aware of any relegation of the MkI*** to second line use and I have yet to find any documentation indicating the the various marks of ShtLE were distinguished in the supply chain or issue and certainly wartime images show mixes of MkI/III/III* rifles in the same unit. If anyone has any indication that there was a distinction made in issuing MkI*** and MkIII/III* rifles  I would be very interested in seeing it. (MkIs were distinguished because they were sighted for MkVI ammunition)

 

If you look at this famous picture of piles of battlefield recovered ShtLEs on the Somme (Nov 1916) you will see all marks in the mix, while most are MkIII/III*s - MkIs can be identified by their straight foresight protecting ears - several of which are clearly visible on the front left side of the linked pic. Such images also show the sheer scale of what was going on!

 

Chris

Edited 25 April , 2019 by 4thGordons