JMB1943 Posted 25 April , 2019 Share Posted 25 April , 2019 Chris, That photo that you linked to has what could be a trench periscope close to the handle-bars of the bicycle. But, is it......? Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 26 April , 2019 Share Posted 26 April , 2019 1 hour ago, JMB1943 said: Chris, That photo that you linked to has what could be a trench periscope close to the handle-bars of the bicycle. But, is it......? Regards, JMB Dunno.....could be - that was my first thought but it looks like it might be more curved?. I was wondering if anyone would comment on it! Source (extracted from © IWM (Q 1446) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 4 May , 2019 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2019 As can probably be guessed from the subject of this posting, I have been looking into the subject of the box periscope, chiefly because I have finally managed to purchase one! It came to me in untouched condition, but rather delicate and with a touch of woodworm. I suspect that at some point it had been dropped and the central hinge was just about hanging on with a screw missing. It was thick with dust. Giving it some TLC has revealed some interesting details which I thought might be worth sharing. When I committed to buy it, I wasn't sure there was any WD arrow stamp on it and wasn't sure if this mattered or not, as I have assumed the early ones will have been produced in quite a hurry? You then begin to wonder if it might be a reproduction/film-prop, but I feel sure you will agree this one is totally authentic. One of the photos shows a very faint arrow stamp in smudged black ink, but there is another photo of the raised viewing shutter which shows that in the lower right hand corner, the wood has been stamped with two point-to-point WD arrows, which I thought was rather unusual. If you are into details, I note that the wood screws which hold the 2" hinges on are all slotted No.6s but they are quite unusual and specific in that they have the thread run right up to the screw head - necessary because they are going into thin box wood, and then so that they do not project much into the inside of the periscope, they have all had most of the excess thread cut off. I think this will have been done to prevent the screws creating a distraction when looking via the mirrors. The mirrors are both produced to a very high standard, undoubtedly, silvered copper. They show no signs of deterioration other than an accumulated patina from where they have not been cleaned thoroughly. The sliding shutter was stuck fast but has easily been freed off with a little oil and grease. The woodworm has been treated, but to disguise the holes, I have applied some grease to them and then worked dried soil in. Sounds horrendous, but it can then be buffed off with kitchen paper and you would then never know except that the holes are now all filled and not so obvious. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 4 May , 2019 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave66 Posted 4 May , 2019 Share Posted 4 May , 2019 Excellent example, and a good tip about filling those woodworm holes, thanks. Nice to see the reverse broad arrow, sold out of service stamp...considering its age, materials and construction quite rare survivor in that condition. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 4 May , 2019 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2019 Cheers Dave. Realised that I hadn't posted the black ink arrow stamp. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave66 Posted 4 May , 2019 Share Posted 4 May , 2019 David, What are your plans for the spike...source an original or have one made? I would imagine an original would be like finding a needle in a haystack, but a galvanised copy would set it of nicely. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 4 May , 2019 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2019 A copy would be achievable but I could do with some dimensions and better photos of one to pull it of. I wouldn't galvanise it as I'm sure it would be hastily made in mild steel originally, and possibly not even painted? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 5 May , 2019 Share Posted 5 May , 2019 (edited) Note that these were made very roughly so there is likely to be a wide variation of dimensions and tolerances both within single factories and between factories. This example is 354mm long and the attached articulation piece is 93mm long, the spike is 25.6mm wide and the extension 26.1mm wide, both are 4.6mm thick. Take this as nominal 1-inch x 3/16 inch flat bar. The machine screw for the articulation appears to be forge welded in position. Regards origin. A large quantity (about 1 cubic metre) were sold as Australian Army war surplus in about 1977. They ended up at a gun shop in North Sydney, called the Armoury run by Tony Hodges. His shop was military firearms and militaria. He was selling these for years. The shop moved to the city in York St and he still had plenty. He finally sold the last of them some time between 1982 and 1984. Initially they were stacked against a wall, as a pile about 8 feet long and 3ft high (about 200units, all in bags, with slings, with spare mirrors). A lot were sent to UK collectors in the 80s, as they were selling for very much higher prices in the UK than from Tony (about AUD$10 to $20 by memory, with about $2 to $3 = 1 GBP at the time (The AUD$ collapsed in 1983 when Labor was elected). The Australian film industry had a huge amount of tax incentives in the late 70s early 80s. Lots of films were made just to comply with the tax rules. As a result there were a number of WW1 films mostly pretty terrible. Amongst the better films was Gallipoli (1981) (historically dreadful, cliché anti-British propaganda). These periscopes regularly appear in these movies, always original examples, they were cheap props. Cheers Ross Edited 5 May , 2019 by Chasemuseum error, Mk II example not Mk I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 5 May , 2019 Author Share Posted 5 May , 2019 This is excellent Ross & thanks for posting. I guess the impossible to replicate aspect of the bracket would be the forged serrations which for part of the pivot. That apart, a copy would be fairly straight forward although finding bolts and wingnuts of the right size and thread is not quite as easy as might be imagined. Do we know what the differences were between the Mk I & Mk II? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 5 May , 2019 Share Posted 5 May , 2019 Sorry, mine is a Mk II so both are Mk II. No idea of differences to a Mk I. Making the spike and articulation piece would be fairly easy using some black bar stock from the steel merchant (you may have to buy a 7.2m length). The serrations. These have been hot forged, using a custom made tool. If you know someone who does amateur blacksmithing they may be able to do this fairly easily. Otherwise trying to cut these into the steel will be a lot of work and look very wrong. Wing nuts, you need the same as the one you already have. Modern steel wingnuts look different but should be acceptable. It can be a bit of a hunt finding steel ones as a lot of hardware stores these days tend to sell the diecast aluminium and brass ones. Cheers Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 5 May , 2019 Author Share Posted 5 May , 2019 Purely a hunch, but I would suspect the difference between the Mk I & II will be the addition of the sliding shutter. It's my guess it soon became apparent they could do with something like this to protect the eyes from shards of mirror as and when the scope was sniped etc? Search on for a blacksmith! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 5 May , 2019 Share Posted 5 May , 2019 The other very important feature is given in the instruction label. The vertical sheet of glass at the bottom, If the slide is only raised 1cm, it is possible to see through the bottom vertical glass and if the top mirror is shot out the eyes are protected. If safe to do so, or using binoculars, the slide can be full raised for easier use but without the direct protection Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 5 May , 2019 Share Posted 5 May , 2019 Ross, Thanks for the information and excellent photos. It had not occurred to me that there are many similarities between the No. 9 and No.30 periscopes although perhaps this is not surprising given both are made by Adams. For instance, the fixing spikes, save for the method of attachment to the periscope, appear identical as I hope can be seen from the attached photos. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 5 May , 2019 Author Share Posted 5 May , 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, Chasemuseum said: The other very important feature is given in the instruction label. The vertical sheet of glass at the bottom, If the slide is only raised 1cm, it is possible to see through the bottom vertical glass and if the top mirror is shot out the eyes are protected. If safe to do so, or using binoculars, the slide can be full raised for easier use but without the direct protection Ross This rather scuppers my suggestion that the difference between the Mk I & Mk II might be the sliding shutter, clearly this isn't the case, which throws open again the question of just what is the difference between the MkI & II? Maybe it was the addition of the spike support? Correction. I completely misread the photo, which I thought was a Mk I - the staining obscuring the fact it is a Mk II. So maybe my suggestion still stands? David Edited 5 May , 2019 by GRANVILLE Misinterpretation of photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DorsetDan Posted 7 May , 2019 Share Posted 7 May , 2019 On 22/04/2019 at 16:17, GRANVILLE said: If by chance anyone has a better photo of the particular bracket used to fix a support into the trench side, I would be very grateful. Has anyone ever field-dug one up and not understood what it was? David Yes they have - picked this up field walking on the Somme a few years ago , didn't have a clue what it was , until now . Cheers DD . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 7 May , 2019 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2019 Brill. The forum does a great job again! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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