Hopeful Posted 5 April , 2019 Share Posted 5 April , 2019 This is a photo from an old family album showing my great aunt's husband. Im afraid the photo is rather fuzzy, but I wondered if anyone would be able to identify the regiment to which he belonged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 5 April , 2019 Share Posted 5 April , 2019 Middlesex Regiment: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 5 April , 2019 Share Posted 5 April , 2019 I'm no expert on badges so can you tell us his name please? George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 April , 2019 Share Posted 5 April , 2019 Agreed with Andrew, Middlesex Regiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopeful Posted 6 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 6 April , 2019 On 05/04/2019 at 13:53, George Rayner said: I'm no expert on badges so can you tell us his name please? George His name was Bertram Hope. This picture was dated 1918. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopeful Posted 6 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 6 April , 2019 On 05/04/2019 at 13:48, Andrew Upton said: Middlesex Regiment: Many thanks for this, your input much appreciated! On 05/04/2019 at 13:57, FROGSMILE said: Agreed with Andrew, Middlesex Regiment. Thanks very much. He is a part of my family tree and I am trying to identify him more clearly so all three of you have been a great help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 6 April , 2019 Share Posted 6 April , 2019 I can't find any records for him though. Do you know his number? Could be my searching though! George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopeful Posted 6 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 6 April , 2019 Just now, George Rayner said: I can't find any records for him though. Do you know his number? Could be my searching though! George I'm afraid I don't know anything about him except that now I know he was in the Middlesex regiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 6 April , 2019 Share Posted 6 April , 2019 (edited) Will keep looking then... Birth date or family info? George Edited 6 April , 2019 by George Rayner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopeful Posted 6 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 6 April , 2019 Just now, George Rayner said: Will keep looking then... George Thanks George, that's very kind of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 6 April , 2019 Share Posted 6 April , 2019 Any dates associated with him-birth, death, family info? George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopeful Posted 6 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 6 April , 2019 1 minute ago, George Rayner said: Any dates associated with him-birth, death, family info? George Ive been able to find very little. He was possibly born in about 1880. He married Grace Lilly Piggott in about 1914 or later. They lived in London I think as that's where Anthony was born (Paddington)They had a daughter Joan in about 1918 and a son Anthony in 1922 (definite date). I have no idea when he died but I do know that she married again and had two further children in the early 1930s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 6 April , 2019 Share Posted 6 April , 2019 Interesting quick look at Ancestry Grace Lilly-not necessarily the right one married Bertram Hirsch in Southwark in 1912 there are also Hinson, Salmon, Starbuck and Bright but not in London found Anthony in Paddington 1922 George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopeful Posted 6 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 6 April , 2019 2 minutes ago, George Rayner said: Interesting quick look at Ancestry Grace Lilly-not necessarily the right one married Bertram Hirsch in Southwark in 1912 there are also Hinson, Salmon, Starbuck and Bright but not in London found Anthony in Paddington 1922 George As far as I know she only had two husbands. Bertram is a bit of a mystery . . . . But thanks very much for looking and for your interest and patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 6 April , 2019 Share Posted 6 April , 2019 Hi, Do you know if Joan had married by 1939 - it's just that if you can track her down on the 1939 National Register, (available on FindMyPast & Ancestry), this will give you a date of birth. With a date of birth you might be able to track down a birth certicate and if it was in 1918 it should show Bertrams Rank and Regiment if he was in the Army at that point - which would seem likely. Note I cannot see any birth recorded in England and Wales for a Hope, mothers maiden name Piggott in 1918. However what I did note was the birth of a Reginald J. Hope, mothers' maiden name Piggott was registered in the Fulham District of London in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1916. This possibly pre-dates Bertrams' enlistment, so obtaining his birth certificate might be a bit of a gamble. (May be a bit of a co-incidence but a Reginald Jesse Hope, born 9th December 1915, died in the North Cotswold District of Gloucestershire in Q2 of 1992.) The GRO now do a reduced cost birth certificate for genealogy purposes only available as a pdf. Other than that the Absent Voters Lists for 1918 & 1919 on FindMyPast may help with his unit, but it can be a bit of a needle in a haystack. See https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/ Hope that helps, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 6 April , 2019 Share Posted 6 April , 2019 I hope someone else comes along with information on Bertram Hope in the Middlesex Regiment 'cos I can't find him! George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 7 April , 2019 Share Posted 7 April , 2019 (edited) I think that that Bertram Hope and Bertram L Hirsch marrying Grace Lilly Piggott are the same person. There is a Bertie Hirsch on the 1911 Census (Ancestry has transcribed that as "Berlie"): Morris Hirsch, age 46, married 20 years to Julia Hirchs, born in Germany (Lautenting???) and naturalised as a British Citizen in 1886, a wholesale habberdasher Julia Hirsch, age 40. married 20 years to Morris Hirsch, born at "Houndsditch", London (I think this should be Shoreditch) Bertie Hirsch, age 17, born at Hampstead https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_00415_0039_03?pid=1363452&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DLjd15098%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3D1911england%26gsfn%3DMorris%26gsln%3DHirsch%26gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln_x%3D1%26cp%3D11%26qh%3Dgxw0n0Mabdqt3DG%2B6bkqPQ%3D%3D%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26uidh%3D5k3%26redir%3Dfalse%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D35%26fh%3D1%26h%3D1363452%26recoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D2&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ljd15098&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true In 1916 Morris Hirsch changed his name to deed poll to Morris Hope, presumably due to anti-German feeling: I, MORRIS HOPE, heretofore known as Morris Hirsch, of 23, Clarendon-road, Holland-park, and, of 8, Brownlow-street, High Holborn, both in the county at London, Trimming Merchant, do hereby give notice that by deed poll, dated the 17th day of April, 1916, and duly enrolled in the Enrolment Office in the Supreme Court of Judicature on the 20th day of April, 1916, I have assumed, and intend henceforth to use and be known by, the surname of "Hope" instead of that of "Hirsch," and that in future I intend to be known as "Morris Hope."— Dated this 17th day of April, 1916. MORRIS HOPE. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29568/page/4496 In May 1918 the son, Barnett aka Bertie also changed his name: By deed poll, dated the 28th day May, 1918, and enrolled in the Central Office of the Supreme • Court on the 26th day of June, 1918, BARNETT LIONEL HOPE,.of 40, Hanover-street, Brighton, in the county -of Sussex, and. now a Private in "His, Majesty's Army, heretofoie called and known-.as Barnett Lionel Hirsch, assumed, and determined thenceforth upon all occasions to use and be called and known, by the surname of Hope in substitution, for his former name of Hirsoh, and by the same deed poll th.e said Barnett Lionel Hope .assumed, on behalf of his child Joan Julia Lilian Charlotte Hirsch, the surname of Hope instead of Hirsch.—Dated this 1st day of July, 1918. A. KING HAMILTON, Solicitor, 4344 Great Windmill Street. Piccadilly Circus. London, W. 1. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30781/page/7988 (Bold highlight is mine) Joan J C L Hirsch, is recorded as born at Hampstead, registered in the first quarter (Jan, Feb, Mar) 1917 with mother's maiden name as "Piggett" with an "e") Hence, I believe we are looking at Barnett Lionel Hirsch born in 1894 at Hampstead, No. G/48521 in the Middlesex Regiment - served overseas with the 1st Infantry Labour Company of the Middlesex Regiment from some time after 1-1-1916. Steve. Edited 7 April , 2019 by Stebie9173 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 7 April , 2019 Share Posted 7 April , 2019 The Middlesex Regiment's Infantry Labour Companies are described here: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-duke-of-cambridges-own-middlesex-regiment/enemy-alien-labour-units-of-the-middlesex-regiment/ Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 April , 2019 Share Posted 7 April , 2019 (edited) Absolutely brilliant detective work Steve, as per your usual meticulous research. I feel sure that you have our man. Presumably he enlisted as ‘Hirsch’. Edited 7 April , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 7 April , 2019 Share Posted 7 April , 2019 Well done indeed George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Atkins Posted 7 April , 2019 Share Posted 7 April , 2019 Yes, great work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 7 April , 2019 Share Posted 7 April , 2019 (edited) It was George's posting of the 1912 Hirsch marriage with the same first (and maybe actually incorrect) name of Bertram that set my mind running. I have had previous experience with second generation German men serving in the Middlesex Regiment (and anglicising name changes), which helped make the leap between Hope and Hirsch. Steve. Edited 7 April , 2019 by Stebie9173 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 7 April , 2019 Share Posted 7 April , 2019 (edited) To add a bit more proof, here is Joan's birth registration, 1939 register and death registration. Her multiple initials make the identification easier. She appears to have been born on 12 December 1916 with her birth registered following the new year of 1917: Name: Joan J C L Hirsch Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar Registration district: Hampstead Inferred County: Greater London Mother's Maiden Name: Piggett Volume Number: 1a Page Number: 879 1939 Register: Joan Hope, born 12 December 1916 residing at the Royal Fusiliers Depot, Hounslow Barracks; a telephonist and shorthand typist with Stores Section, 41st Middlesex Company A.T.S. https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=Ljd15145&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=1939ukregister&gsfn=Joan&gsln=Hope&gsfn_x=1&gsln_x=1&cp=11&msbdy=1917&msbdy_x=1&msbdp=2&new=1&rank=1&uidh=5k3&redir=false&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=4&h=10705379&recoff=&ml_rpos=5 Death registration: Name: Joan Julia C L Hope Death Age: 87 Birth Date: 12 Dec 1916 Registration Date: Mar 2004 Registration district: Brentwood Inferred County: Essex Register Number: 54B District and Subdistrict: 466/2 Steve. Edited 7 April , 2019 by Stebie9173 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 7 April , 2019 Share Posted 7 April , 2019 As an aside B.L Hirsch is listed in the nominal roll of those that served In the British Jewry Book Of Honour Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopeful Posted 9 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2019 On 06/04/2019 at 19:44, Hopeful said: As far as I know she only had two husbands. Bertram is a bit of a mystery . . . . But thanks very much for looking and for your interest and patience. I had a look at your other suggestions, and the Hinson one looks very possible . There is a marriage between Alfred A Hinson and Grace Piggott in Cambridge where my Grace was born in 1914. So the question arises - is there an Alfred A Hinson in the Middlesex regiment in 1918? Of course, the other question is how did her children end up as Hope but that is not for this forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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