Hopeful Posted 9 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2019 On 06/04/2019 at 20:42, PRC said: Hi, Do you know if Joan had married by 1939 - it's just that if you can track her down on the 1939 National Register, (available on FindMyPast & Ancestry), this will give you a date of birth. With a date of birth you might be able to track down a birth certicate and if it was in 1918 it should show Bertrams Rank and Regiment if he was in the Army at that point - which would seem likely. Note I cannot see any birth recorded in England and Wales for a Hope, mothers maiden name Piggott in 1918. However what I did note was the birth of a Reginald J. Hope, mothers' maiden name Piggott was registered in the Fulham District of London in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1916. This possibly pre-dates Bertrams' enlistment, so obtaining his birth certificate might be a bit of a gamble. (May be a bit of a co-incidence but a Reginald Jesse Hope, born 9th December 1915, died in the North Cotswold District of Gloucestershire in Q2 of 1992.) The GRO now do a reduced cost birth certificate for genealogy purposes only available as a pdf. Other than that the Absent Voters Lists for 1918 & 1919 on FindMyPast may help with his unit, but it can be a bit of a needle in a haystack. See https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/ Hope that helps, Peter No Peter she didn't marry. I spent the whole day following up on your suggestions and those of others on this forum, and I'm truly grateful for the help. So far I have come to the conclusion that Bertram Hope did not exist. So I am now moving on to other suggestions, also from the amazing people on this forum. I found Reginald J. Hope - thanks for that - but as far as I know, no relation. Many thanks for your input have made a couple of notes that may be useful - especially the PDF birth certificate - thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopeful Posted 9 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2019 On 07/04/2019 at 17:15, Stebie9173 said: I think that that Bertram Hope and Bertram L Hirsch marrying Grace Lilly Piggott are the same person. There is a Bertie Hirsch on the 1911 Census (Ancestry has transcribed that as "Berlie"): Morris Hirsch, age 46, married 20 years to Julia Hirchs, born in Germany (Lautenting???) and naturalised as a British Citizen in 1886, a wholesale habberdasher Julia Hirsch, age 40. married 20 years to Morris Hirsch, born at "Houndsditch", London (I think this should be Shoreditch) Bertie Hirsch, age 17, born at Hampstead https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_00415_0039_03?pid=1363452&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DLjd15098%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3D1911england%26gsfn%3DMorris%26gsln%3DHirsch%26gsfn_x%3D1%26gsln_x%3D1%26cp%3D11%26qh%3Dgxw0n0Mabdqt3DG%2B6bkqPQ%3D%3D%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26uidh%3D5k3%26redir%3Dfalse%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D35%26fh%3D1%26h%3D1363452%26recoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D2&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Ljd15098&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true In 1916 Morris Hirsch changed his name to deed poll to Morris Hope, presumably due to anti-German feeling: I, MORRIS HOPE, heretofore known as Morris Hirsch, of 23, Clarendon-road, Holland-park, and, of 8, Brownlow-street, High Holborn, both in the county at London, Trimming Merchant, do hereby give notice that by deed poll, dated the 17th day of April, 1916, and duly enrolled in the Enrolment Office in the Supreme Court of Judicature on the 20th day of April, 1916, I have assumed, and intend henceforth to use and be known by, the surname of "Hope" instead of that of "Hirsch," and that in future I intend to be known as "Morris Hope."— Dated this 17th day of April, 1916. MORRIS HOPE. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29568/page/4496 In May 1918 the son, Barnett aka Bertie also changed his name: By deed poll, dated the 28th day May, 1918, and enrolled in the Central Office of the Supreme • Court on the 26th day of June, 1918, BARNETT LIONEL HOPE,.of 40, Hanover-street, Brighton, in the county -of Sussex, and. now a Private in "His, Majesty's Army, heretofoie called and known-.as Barnett Lionel Hirsch, assumed, and determined thenceforth upon all occasions to use and be called and known, by the surname of Hope in substitution, for his former name of Hirsoh, and by the same deed poll th.e said Barnett Lionel Hope .assumed, on behalf of his child Joan Julia Lilian Charlotte Hirsch, the surname of Hope instead of Hirsch.—Dated this 1st day of July, 1918. A. KING HAMILTON, Solicitor, 4344 Great Windmill Street. Piccadilly Circus. London, W. 1. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30781/page/7988 (Bold highlight is mine) Joan J C L Hirsch, is recorded as born at Hampstead, registered in the first quarter (Jan, Feb, Mar) 1917 with mother's maiden name as "Piggett" with an "e") Hence, I believe we are looking at Barnett Lionel Hirsch born in 1894 at Hampstead, No. G/48521 in the Middlesex Regiment - served overseas with the 1st Infantry Labour Company of the Middlesex Regiment from some time after 1-1-1916. Steve. Wow! I think you've done it! Thank you so much! This is amazing. My family is going to be so excited that this long-time brick wall has finally been breached. I am so very grateful for your interest and the time you put into finding all this information. On 07/04/2019 at 18:04, Stebie9173 said: The Middlesex Regiment's Infantry Labour Companies are described here: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-duke-of-cambridges-own-middlesex-regiment/enemy-alien-labour-units-of-the-middlesex-regiment/ Steve. Thanks for the link - will go and have a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopeful Posted 9 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2019 On 07/04/2019 at 22:41, Stebie9173 said: To add a bit more proof, here is Joan's birth registration, 1939 register and death registration. Her multiple initials make the identification easier. She appears to have been born on 12 December 1916 with her birth registered following the new year of 1917: Name: Joan J C L Hirsch Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar Registration district: Hampstead Inferred County: Greater London Mother's Maiden Name: Piggett Volume Number: 1a Page Number: 879 1939 Register: Joan Hope, born 12 December 1916 residing at the Royal Fusiliers Depot, Hounslow Barracks; a telephonist and shorthand typist with Stores Section, 41st Middlesex Company A.T.S. https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=Ljd15145&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=1939ukregister&gsfn=Joan&gsln=Hope&gsfn_x=1&gsln_x=1&cp=11&msbdy=1917&msbdy_x=1&msbdp=2&new=1&rank=1&uidh=5k3&redir=false&gss=angs-d&pcat=35&fh=4&h=10705379&recoff=&ml_rpos=5 Death registration: Name: Joan Julia C L Hope Death Age: 87 Birth Date: 12 Dec 1916 Registration Date: Mar 2004 Registration district: Brentwood Inferred County: Essex Register Number: 54B District and Subdistrict: 466/2 Steve. I don't really know how to thank you for all this information without being very repetitive, but I'm truly grateful. On 07/04/2019 at 23:18, RaySearching said: As an aside B.L Hirsch is listed in the nominal roll of those that served In the British Jewry Book Of Honour Ray Great! Many thanks indeed for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopeful Posted 9 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2019 Well, I had no idea that when I came back to this topic today, the whole mystery had been solved in my absence. You are a fantastic bunch and have added a very interesting section to my family tree. My deepest gratitude to you all, as I'm sure you all went beyond the call of duty so to speak . . . . Sal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 9 April , 2019 Share Posted 9 April , 2019 (edited) Just to add a bit to the story: There is a Barnett L Hope who married Eileen B Greenwood in 1936: Name: Barnett L Hope Registration Year: 1936 Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep Registration district: Fulham Spouse: Eileen B Greenwood {Eileen Bertha Greenwood} He died on 25 February 1970 at Bridlington (residence 65 Bempton Crescent) according to Probate records. Name: Barnet Lionel Hope Death Age: 75 Birth Date: 27 Feb 1895 {Birth registration in A/M/J quarter of 1894 would suggest this is a year earlier) Registration Date: Jun 1970 Registration district: Buckrose County: Yorkshire East Riding Volume: 2a, Page: 19 His appears to be a unique name, so it looks like Barnett and Grace parted ways rather than Barnett dying. Steve. Edited 9 April , 2019 by Stebie9173 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopeful Posted 10 April , 2019 Author Share Posted 10 April , 2019 Thanks very much for this Steve. Its good to know at the end of the story that that he didn't die. I like your Dr Johnson quote - '...knowing where to find out' - fits you very well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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