peter blackwell Posted 8 March , 2019 Author Share Posted 8 March , 2019 It may be one of those things, we'll just never know, after such a long period of time. Thank you for all of your help, it's been brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 8 March , 2019 Share Posted 8 March , 2019 I've been trying to find Blackwell's Roll #17400 page 7 from MIC ref. The 33 men identified in The Taming of the Tiger are in TNA WO100/473 which Maureene put up a link for and it's free! The 'verification' thing applies to the the 33 men, the other RWF entries described by TNA in WO100/473 amount to another 23 RWF men according to an index page in WO100/473 (NB the same index page says 32 verification so someone didn't add up very well. The MIC for 200554 Williams is interesting as it has gives a roll number of 17395 - 6 and states returned for disposal. He also has an AG10 ref of 17395. His Medal roll gives no indication about returning or disposal. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 8 March , 2019 Share Posted 8 March , 2019 Slight correction to make. WO100/473 has 32 RWF men with Afghanistan NWF 1919 clasps. 11309 Franklin should not be in the list 'Taming of the Tiger'. The 32 are on lists with various numbers but none matching Blackwell's. The note I put in post #14 is at the beginning of the RWF rolls for various clasps but it says 'Medals for effective personnel apparently issued in India'. Effective probably means still serving, the 32 men had been discharged before the medal had been issued 1922/3. WO100/473 notes another 23 medals to RWF & same clasp which I think were issued to serving men by India office. This means 55 RWF men had this medal & clasp not 32. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter blackwell Posted 8 March , 2019 Author Share Posted 8 March , 2019 thanks very much pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter blackwell Posted 9 March , 2019 Author Share Posted 9 March , 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, TEW said: Slight correction to make. WO100/473 has 32 RWF men with Afghanistan NWF 1919 clasps. 11309 Franklin should not be in the list 'Taming of the Tiger'. The 32 are on lists with various numbers but none matching Blackwell's. The note I put in post #14 is at the beginning of the RWF rolls for various clasps but it says 'Medals for effective personnel apparently issued in India'. Effective probably means still serving, the 32 men had been discharged before the medal had been issued 1922/3. WO100/473 notes another 23 medals to RWF & same clasp which I think were issued to serving men by India office. This means 55 RWF men had this medal & clasp not 32. TEW Edited 9 March , 2019 by peter blackwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter blackwell Posted 9 March , 2019 Author Share Posted 9 March , 2019 Thanks very much. He would still have been serving Possibly Northern Ireland, or even Wazristan, depending on which of the two battalions he was in after the 8th battalion disbanded. He left the Royal Welsh to join the Welsh Regement in1920. I don't know Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 10 March , 2019 Share Posted 10 March , 2019 Have at last found his medal roll for IGSM Afghanistan NWF 1919. He is on the roll for Welsh Regiment WO100/476. Free to download from TNA, page 68 of part 2 of download. Not very clear, number is almost illegible and surname not much better, no idea how ancestry have transcribed it. Ancestry's image will be clearer, if you search for 86587 Mills under campaign medals to 1949 then go back a page. List compiled S. Ireland 12/10/1922. He was discharged RWF 13/1/20 and reenlisted presumably straight away into 2/Welsh. The medal was either presented to him around 6/6/1923 if serving, posted if not. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter blackwell Posted 10 March , 2019 Author Share Posted 10 March , 2019 Thanks very much unfortunatly i cannot get on TNA can't sign in for some reason. Is it possible to send image please pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 11 March , 2019 Share Posted 11 March , 2019 Pete, TNA was being weird last night, took me a while and a few attempts to get in, find it and download it. For future reference you don't need to sign in to download free things. Devon libraries now suffering IT failure today so may be a bit restricted. TNA link to the freebie. Hope this Ancestry link works. Ancestry have indexed him by forename only, no number or surname at all! But he is in the right campaign. The Surname is badly typed and I can see why it became Blackwall in the 'Taming of the Tiger'. If the link doesn't work search in; UK, Military Campaign Medal and Award Rolls, 1793-1949 for Mills 86587 and go back a page. The TNA scan is poor quality compared to ancestry's image. Part of the problem finding the correct roll has been that TNA have 3 IGSM hits for "Welsh Regiment" and 2 for "Welch Regiment" with no overlap. Having downloaded some of the free rolls since Friday I've also discovered that some of them are mis-described. I'm still a bit puzzled by the listing in Taming of the Tiger. They have listed the Clasps issued to 8/RWF men and stated that 33 men of 8/RWF recieved Afganistan NWF 1919 clasps and stated that Franklin is unique in have 2 Waziristan Clasp. This appears to up the rarity value of these medals/clasps. However, as Clive pointed out in post#16 8/RWF did not serve in that campaign so in fact nobody in 8/RFW recieved a medal/clasp. Having said that the RWF Medal Rolls do show 8/RWF as Corps of department in which the decoration was earned to 5 individuals, Blackwell's also says 8/RWF. No doubt there are others in other rolls. Most of the rolls either give 1/RWF or just RWF and as 1/RWF were the only RWF unit in the campaign the 8/RWF must be simply an admin issue. The diary for 8/RWF Mesopotamia ends in Feb 1919. The Afghanistan 1919 NWF campaign runs 6/5/19-8/8/19 (Wiki). Blackwell and the others from 8/RWF either arrived NWF before 6/5/19 and had that unit placed on the roll as a disembarkation unit or they arrived within the campaign period and were posted to 1/RWF the same day but listed as 8/RWF. It's all a bit unnecessary really as the medal is impressed R.W.Fus so seperating out different battalions only complicates things. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter blackwell Posted 11 March , 2019 Author Share Posted 11 March , 2019 2 hours ago, TEW said: Pete, TNA was being weird last night, took me a while and a few attempts to get in, find it and download it. For future reference you don't need to sign in to download free things. Devon libraries now suffering IT failure today so may be a bit restricted. TNA link to the freebie. Hope this Ancestry link works. Ancestry have indexed him by forename only, no number or surname at all! But he is in the right campaign. The Surname is badly typed and I can see why it became Blackwall in the 'Taming of the Tiger'. If the link doesn't work search in; UK, Military Campaign Medal and Award Rolls, 1793-1949 for Mills 86587 and go back a page. The TNA scan is poor quality compared to ancestry's image. Part of the problem finding the correct roll has been that TNA have 3 IGSM hits for "Welsh Regiment" and 2 for "Welch Regiment" with no overlap. Having downloaded some of the free rolls since Friday I've also discovered that some of them are mis-described. I'm still a bit puzzled by the listing in Taming of the Tiger. They have listed the Clasps issued to 8/RWF men and stated that 33 men of 8/RWF recieved Afganistan NWF 1919 clasps and stated that Franklin is unique in have 2 Waziristan Clasp. This appears to up the rarity value of these medals/clasps. However, as Clive pointed out in post#16 8/RWF did not serve in that campaign so in fact nobody in 8/RFW recieved a medal/clasp. Having said that the RWF Medal Rolls do show 8/RWF as Corps of department in which the decoration was earned to 5 individuals, Blackwell's also says 8/RWF. No doubt there are others in other rolls. Most of the rolls either give 1/RWF or just RWF and as 1/RWF were the only RWF unit in the campaign the 8/RWF must be simply an admin issue. The diary for 8/RWF Mesopotamia ends in Feb 1919. The Afghanistan 1919 NWF campaign runs 6/5/19-8/8/19 (Wiki). Blackwell and the others from 8/RWF either arrived NWF before 6/5/19 and had that unit placed on the roll as a disembarkation unit or they arrived within the campaign period and were posted to 1/RWF the same day but listed as 8/RWF. It's all a bit unnecessary really as the medal is impressed R.W.Fus so seperating out different battalions only complicates things. TEW Thanks very much i have managed to get the downloads from TNA, and a much clearer image from ancestry. cheers pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter blackwell Posted 11 March , 2019 Author Share Posted 11 March , 2019 (edited) Edited 12 March , 2019 by peter blackwell not needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter blackwell Posted 11 March , 2019 Author Share Posted 11 March , 2019 On 05/03/2019 at 21:18, roselyn2 said: I’ve been told that the Indian G. S. Medal Bar Afghanistan N. W. F. 1919 to the Welsh Regiment is rare to the regiment. Lyn. He was in both RWF and The Welch Regement, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter blackwell Posted 12 March , 2019 Author Share Posted 12 March , 2019 (edited) On 11/03/2019 at 16:44, peter blackwell said: Thanks very much i have managed to get the downloads from TNA, and a much clearer image from ancestry. cheers pete ive been looking at WO100/476, and found Thomas Blackwell roll amongst the rolls of the Prince of Wales Voluteers South Lancashire Regement? Is it possible he could have served along with them? thanks pete Edited 12 March , 2019 by peter blackwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 12 March , 2019 Share Posted 12 March , 2019 If I understand correctly the medal index card indicates that the medal that was returned was named to Blackwell in the RWF and the medal the family has is named to the Welsh Regiment. I would suggest that two medals were named to him and that as he already had the one, the other was listed for disposal. As the claw of the medal that is with the family indicates it was issued by India it would stand that the medal listed for disposal was issued by the British and disposed of when it was discovered or returned by him. Dual awards of the IGSM with Afghan NWF1919 are frequently seen. I have the medal to a Lieut. in an Indian Mountain Battery who was issued two of these, one from Indian and one a British issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter blackwell Posted 12 March , 2019 Author Share Posted 12 March , 2019 (edited) thanks i never would have thought of that i'm realy greatful pete Edited 12 March , 2019 by peter blackwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 13 March , 2019 Share Posted 13 March , 2019 Thought family medal was impressed to R.W.Fus. He was demobbed and re-enlisted Welsh Regt. therefore on WR roll. Just looked through S Lancs and couldn't see him, do you have a page number? His MIC does have 2 roll number references so this could be why. My impression from dates etc on MIC; Medal returned 24/5/23. Issue voucher for RWF medal is dated 6/6/23. He can't have returned a medal he had not yet received. RWF medal is on roll 17400 page 7, the other roll is 18776 possibly the S. Lancs one. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter blackwell Posted 13 March , 2019 Author Share Posted 13 March , 2019 (edited) Just looked at medal receipt, could not find 18776, only sheet number 7 and above that but not very clear, is what looks like 7400 in top right hand corner. Could this be Roll 17400? and Roll 18776 be the one that was returned? It would seem AG/10/18776 could have been deleated, but can't be certain. Thanks pete. Edited 13 March , 2019 by peter blackwell made addition to response Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 13 March , 2019 Share Posted 13 March , 2019 Yes, that was my impression. WR roll list for him is page 7 so should be list 17400. AG/10/18776 looks like another roll number but even if his entry was deleted the roll/sheet should still exist. Still unable to find him on S. Lancs. roll, page number? TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter blackwell Posted 13 March , 2019 Author Share Posted 13 March , 2019 (edited) i think he will still be listed under rwf thanks pete. I just though he may have faught along side the POW Volunteers. As for list 18776 there were many Thomas Blackwells, in the british Army at that time. It would still be nice to find the list though thanks again pete. Edited 13 March , 2019 by peter blackwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter blackwell Posted 13 March , 2019 Author Share Posted 13 March , 2019 Prince of Wales Volunteers roll is AG/10/16691 Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 14 March , 2019 Share Posted 14 March , 2019 On 06/03/2019 at 08:44, peter blackwell said: No, we have the medal, so it was sent out to him thanks pete Sorry if I'm being pedantic but the ribbons of the British War Medal and the Victory Medal need to be swapped around. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter blackwell Posted 14 March , 2019 Author Share Posted 14 March , 2019 (edited) i never noticed thanks pete. my brother has new ribbons i'll let him know thanks again. Edited 14 March , 2019 by peter blackwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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