india generl service medal afghanistan 1919

[peter blackwell]

[Mark1959]

Welcome.

Do you have a question?

[DavidOwen]

It was returned....

Question might be why? 

Was it undelivered or something else?

 

BTW Welcome to the forum!

[Mark1959]

Rolls says his RW Fusiliers overseas service was all with the 8th Battalion, There were in Mudros, Gallipoli, Egypt and Mesopotamia. Welsh Regiment looks a post war enlistment.

[peter blackwell]

27 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

Welcome.

Do you have a question?

my grandfather was in the 8th battalion royal welsh fusiliers i know he srved at gallipoli and mesopotamia, but on his medal index card it states he recieved the india general service medal. could you please tell me how he won this medal

[Mark1959]

It means he served in the Third Afghan War between 6/5/1919 and 6/8/1919

There were various clasp - put on the ribbon - for the IGSM.  His was Afghanistan NWF (North West Frontier) 1919 - so we know he was present

The card indicates he was still with the RWF (see the hashes) and later  joined the Welsh Regiment.

The card also indicates the medal was returned for disposal on 24/5/1923. This means it was not actually sent out to him - possibly because they did not have a forwarding address. Implying he had left the army by then

It would seem possible, as he may have served beyond 1921, that the MoD may have retained his service papers. I will look at the lists to see if this is likely

In theory, as it would seem he never got the medal. that the family could apply for it to be issued

edit - I cannot find him on the MoD retained records list but it is not necessarily a complete list.

Edited 5 March , 2019 by Mark1959

[peter blackwell]

the puzzling thing is we have the medal sorry it's arealy bad photograph

[Mark1959]

Records are at fault then. Seemingly it must have been issued. The Medal roll that the card is the Index to may reflect this. Cannot find the record at present.

You know the reasons got it know

May be worth contacting the museum to see if they can advise what the RWF got up to.

http://www.rwfmuseum.org.uk/archive.html

the war diaries for most of the 8th RWFs service in ww1 are

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/274c4fe27f614d39b13f9bd7a2d18dfb

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/5267a5788cdb493d9796453eaf652b07

I can find the 8RWF Diary for Gallipoli but not at The National Archives at the moment.

 

Edited 5 March , 2019 by Mark1959

[roselyn2]

I’ve been told that the Indian G. S. Medal Bar Afghanistan N. W. F. 1919 to the Welsh Regiment is rare to the regiment.     Lyn.

[TEW]

It is a bit odd that the card seems to say 'M hol retd for disposal'. Then there is a CRV annotation. As Mark says, the roll might shed light on this. Date it was first sent out should be recorded. The 7 digit WR number must be post 1921.

TEW

[peter blackwell]

11 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

Records are at fault then. Seemingly it must have been issued. The Medal roll that the card is the Index to may reflect this. Cannot find the record at present.

You know the reasons got it know

May be worth contacting the museum to see if they can advise what the RWF got up to.

http://www.rwfmuseum.org.uk/archive.html

the war diaries for most of the 8th RWFs service in ww1 are

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/274c4fe27f614d39b13f9bd7a2d18dfb

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/5267a5788cdb493d9796453eaf652b07

I can find the 8RWF Diary for Gallipoli but not at The National Archives at the moment.

 

thank you very much for your kind help in this matter, i am very grateful

[peter blackwell]

11 hours ago, roselyn2 said:

I’ve been told that the Indian G. S. Medal Bar Afghanistan N. W. F. 1919 to the Welsh Regiment is rare to the regiment.     Lyn.

He was still with the R.W.F at the time, he joined the Welsh Regement in 1920 Thanks Pete 

[peter blackwell]

15 hours ago, DavidOwen said:

It was returned....

Question might be why? 

Was it undelivered or something else?

 

BTW Welcome to the forum!

No, we have the medal, so it was sent out to him thanks pete 

[TEW]

Is the IGSM named to him with number 12564 & RWF?

 

The medal rolls for IGSM have been seriously mangled by ancestry. IGSM rolls for other units under National Archives WO100/414, 419, 470 & 480 and probably others have been placed under Battle of Waterloo. Within those four TNA refs there are rolls for Clasp Afghanistan NWF 1919 hiding within EG WO/100/14.

 

A search for his name and the numbers from his MIC (bearing in mind the above) fails to find an entry for him.

 

Possibly ancestry have mangled his name & number and placed him under Waterloo. The TNA refs that I think he should be on are WO/100/473, 484 or 490 but I suspect ancestry have these under the wrong campaigns, South Africa mid 19thC & QSA Boer War. He may also have been attached to another unit.

 

I'm not convinced that even ancestry could mangle his name, number, unit and put him in the wrong campaign so another alternative is that he was still serving and his medal was issued through Indian Army rolls which are not on Ancestry.

 

The MIC ref Roll 17400-7 doesn't seem to link to any IGSM roll refs I've looked at this morning. WO/100/473 (IGSM for RWF 1919 but different clasps does have a note at the beginning of the roll which says;

Perhaps the same is true for RWF Afghanistan NWF 1919.

TEW

 

[peter blackwell]

1 hour ago, TEW said:

Is the IGSM named to him with number 12564 & RWF?

 

The medal rolls for IGSM have been seriously mangled by ancestry. IGSM rolls for other units under National Archives WO100/414, 419, 470 & 480 and probably others have been placed under Battle of Waterloo. Within those four TNA refs there are rolls for Clasp Afghanistan NWF 1919 hiding within EG WO/100/14.

 

A search for his name and the numbers from his MIC (bearing in mind the above) fails to find an entry for him.

 

Possibly ancestry have mangled his name & number and placed him under Waterloo. The TNA refs that I think he should be on are WO/100/473, 484 or 490 but I suspect ancestry have these under the wrong campaigns, South Africa mid 19thC & QSA Boer War. He may also have been attached to another unit.

 

I'm not convinced that even ancestry could mangle his name, number, unit and put him in the wrong campaign so another alternative is that he was still serving and his medal was issued through Indian Army rolls which are not on Ancestry.

 

The MIC ref Roll 17400-7 doesn't seem to link to any IGSM roll refs I've looked at this morning. WO/100/473 (IGSM for RWF 1919 but different clasps does have a note at the beginning of the roll which says;

Perhaps the same is true for RWF Afghanistan NWF 1919.

TEW

 

It has PTE 12564 T Blackwell RWF, i would be very grateful for any furthe information you may find thanks pete 

[clive_hughes]

The RWF was not present during the NWF 1919 campaign in battalion strength: the 8th RWF had reached India from Mesopotamia in April 1919.  It was reduced to cadre, and arrived in Wrexham on 16 August 1919, being disbanded five days later.  A number of its men served in the NWF campaign under 6th Loyal North Lancashire Regiment.  The medal rolls seem to name only 37 members of the Regiment as entitled to this bar.  

 

The list of Afghanistan NWF 1919 bar recipients in the forthcoming RWF Regimental History 1918-45 do not show a Blackwell, but I should stress that I have not seen the original Roll.  

 

Clive

Edited 6 March , 2019 by clive_hughes

[peter blackwell]

3 hours ago, clive_hughes said:

The RWF was not present during the NWF 1919 campaign in battalion strength: the 8th RWF had reached India from Mesopotamia in April 1919.  It was reduced to cadre, and arrived in Wrexham on 16 August 1919, being disbanded five days later.  A number of its men served in the NWF campaign under 6th Loyal North Lancashire Regiment.  The medal rolls seem to name only 37 members of the Regiment as entitled to this bar.  

 

The list of Afghanistan NWF 1919 bar recipients in the forthcoming RWF Regimental History 1918-45 do not show a Blackwell, but I should stress that I have not seen the original Roll.  

 

Clive

Hello i have included his mic it states it was returned for disposal but the medal was sent out thanks pete

[Johno7439]

Peter, I think this could be your man. 12564 T BLACKWALL (misspelling of Blackwell). 8th (Service) Battalion The Royal Welsh Fusiliers. 

 

These pictures are from  “Taming of the Tiger -  The Story of the Indian General Service Medal” 

 

As stated, the clasp Afghanistan NWF 1919 is considered Very Rare is named to a soldier from the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. 

 

Hope this helps 

 

Ewan 

[peter blackwell]

11 minutes ago, Johno7439 said:

Peter, I think this could be your man. 12564 T BLACKWALL (misspelling of Blackwell). 8th (Service) Battalion The Royal Welsh Fusiliers. 

 

These pictures are from  “Taming of the Tiger -  The Story of the Indian General Service Medal” 

 

As stated, the clasp Afghanistan NWF 1919 is considered Very Rare is named to a soldier from the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. 

 

Hope this helps 

 

Ewan 

 

11 minutes ago, Johno7439 said:

Peter, I think this could be your man. 12564 T BLACKWALL (misspelling of Blackwell). 8th (Service) Battalion The Royal Welsh Fusiliers. 

 

These pictures are from  “Taming of the Tiger -  The Story of the Indian General Service Medal” 

 

As stated, the clasp Afghanistan NWF 1919 is considered Very Rare is named to a soldier from the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. 

 

Hope this helps 

 

Ewan 

Thank you very much i'm so greateful it could be why the medal was returned it's definately my grand father thanks again pete 

[TEW]

I don't as yet understand the reason for the return of the medal but it's not for the usual reasons of 'unclaimed' or for a change in details, spelling etc errors. The former reason would have a King's Regulation and an ****/ADT ref. The latter would have the discrepancies noted on the mic along with a different ****/ADT ref. The 'm hol' has me puzzled, all I can come up with is 'medal holder' but why he should return the medal only for it to be sent out again is puzzling. The AG/10 ref is probably a correspondence file which would explain it all but sadly it no longer exists. Perhaps he returned it thinking it should have been impressed with his later number or another unit or that he didn't think he was entitled to it.

The word 'disposal' might be misleading in this context. I think the medal branch might include posting the medal to the recipient as a disposal. The CRV is a certified receipt voucher which he signed and posted back to say he had received it the second time.

I was checking the IGSM rolls in library today and at last moment I think I found rolls for RWF Afghanistan NWF 1919 so will check those again. However, as the search is not finding him via a simple surname or number search then his may have been issued by the India Office. We know he served into 1921 and may well have been serving when the medal was issued. Depends where he was at the time.

TEW

[MaureenE]

The relevant National Archives catalogue reference appears to be

Subseries within WO 100 - India General Service Medals

WO 100/473

includes  Royal Welch Fusiliers (Verification), Royal Welch Fusiliers

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11200069

Free download available from TNA.

 

I'm not too sure what the "(Verification)" wording means.

 

There are also records WO 100/482, which includes miscellaneous (free download) and 

WO 100/483 "Rolls received from India (with medals); issues in India" (free download)

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

 

[peter blackwell]

7 hours ago, TEW said:

I don't as yet understand the reason for the return of the medal but it's not for the usual reasons of 'unclaimed' or for a change in details, spelling etc errors. The former reason would have a King's Regulation and an ****/ADT ref. The latter would have the discrepancies noted on the mic along with a different ****/ADT ref. The 'm hol' has me puzzled, all I can come up with is 'medal holder' but why he should return the medal only for it to be sent out again is puzzling. The AG/10 ref is probably a correspondence file which would explain it all but sadly it no longer exists. Perhaps he returned it thinking it should have been impressed with his later number or another unit or that he didn't think he was entitled to it.

The word 'disposal' might be misleading in this context. I think the medal branch might include posting the medal to the recipient as a disposal. The CRV is a certified receipt voucher which he signed and posted back to say he had received it the second time.

I was checking the IGSM rolls in library today and at last moment I think I found rolls for RWF Afghanistan NWF 1919 so will check those again. However, as the search is not finding him via a simple surname or number search then his may have been issued by the India Office. We know he served into 1921 and may well have been serving when the medal was issued. Depends where he was at the time.

TEW

Thanks for your response a refrence to my grand father has been found in the  book, Taming the tiger the storey of the India general service medal 1908. page 221 It has his regement and seriel number, but his surname is misspelt, which has him down as Blackwall, not Blackwell. perhaps this is why it was returned, thanks pete 

[peter blackwell]

thankyou  for your kind response, a refrence to my grand father has been found in the  book, Taming the tiger the storey of the India general service medal 1908 page 221. It has his regement, and seriel number, but his surname is misspelt, which has him down as Blackwall, not Blackwell. perhaps this is why it was returned, thanks pete 

 

 

[clive_hughes]

I've just noticed in the photo that the bottom "claw" which attaches the medal disc to the suspension is a "double" one.  If I recall my medal-collecting days (many years ago) that is usually found with Indian-issued medals,as opposed to the single (or thinner, more pointed) claw which is found on British-issue ones?

 

The list of RWF recipients in the forthcoming History is not footnoted to show the source.  On comparing it with the one pictured here, it mentions neither of the officers, nor 6 of the Other Ranks (including Blackwell).  However it adds 12 Other Ranks not in the above picture, all of whom had the 7-figure 1920 Army numbers.  A quick check on the MICs for a couple of those shows no issue of an Afghan  NWF 1919 clasp, nor a claim for it - but they did have at least the Waziristan 1921-24 one (for which 1st RWF was present as a unit).  That's my problem, not yours!!  

 

Clive  

 

 

 

  

[TEW]

Pete, I did spot the Blackwall/Blackwell thing. I still think the mic would show that as the reason for it being returned. Plus I think a spelling error is unlikely if the card is correct. However, this is based on the system for WWI, the IGSM issue and the increasing probability of the India Office being involved may change things. 

TEW