Steve1871 Posted 31 December , 2018 Share Posted 31 December , 2018 Can anyone please help with this unit marking, only pic I have of the unit. First letter is a "L" I think, but the two "K" 's have me stumped, K = Kompany and also Kollum? Thank you guy's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 31 December , 2018 Share Posted 31 December , 2018 (edited) I am not sure if there was something like a Leichte Kraftwagen Kolonne. "KK" often means "Kraftwagen Kolonne", but don´t know if in this context, too. GreyC Edited 31 December , 2018 by GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 31 December , 2018 Share Posted 31 December , 2018 Dear All, What about "Kaiserlich u. Königlich" (i.e. Austrian-Hungarian)...? Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussiesoldier Posted 31 December , 2018 Share Posted 31 December , 2018 G'day, Probably not right but my guide to Imperial German unit designations says KK = Kavallerie-Korps , and the WW2 version has no logical comparison. What is it attached to? Looks like a rifle butt plate. Not an Landwehr corps or mounted rifles raised after mobilisation? Their is a Landwehr VII Army Corps that used the V and VII Reserve Hussars. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 31 December , 2018 Author Share Posted 31 December , 2018 It on a modified M71 carbine, needs lot of cleaning up. Just baffled by the unit mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 31 December , 2018 Share Posted 31 December , 2018 (edited) Dear All, See: Austrian! ('Oesterreichische Waffenfabrik Gesellschaft.') Kindest regards, Kim. Edited 1 January , 2019 by Kimberley John Lindsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 31 December , 2018 Share Posted 31 December , 2018 Don't know about the 'L', but 'K.K.' is Kavallerie Kadettenschule = Cavalry Cadet School. Fits with it being a carbine and just a serial number, as these schools did not - I think! - have squadrons... Whatever it is, Happy New Year to all on the Arms forum and on other GFF forums also! Steve is probably driving today from somewhere to somewhere else, I am certainly doing grading, interviewing potential MA candidates (!!!), and preparing for exams (they start on the 2nd!) - the rest of you, enjoy today this evening and the next couple of days!!! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 31 December , 2018 Share Posted 31 December , 2018 (edited) Well done Kimberly! The question is wether Austrian made weapons were also used in the German Army? Then other possible solutions may come into play. And Happy New Year to all! GreyC Edited 31 December , 2018 by GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 31 December , 2018 Share Posted 31 December , 2018 Oesterreichische Waffenfabriks Ges made a very large number of M1871's for Imperial Germany, note all the German stamps on this weapon. Could the L be the remains of a scrubbed out previous unit? Cheers and Happy New Year, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 31 December , 2018 Share Posted 31 December , 2018 (edited) Yes, lots of German stamps, so it went forth - and back? Should have made it clear that "KK" is an A-H unit marking... The German marking would be a single 'K' for Kadettenanstalt - I don't think there was a separate Kavellerie Kadettenschule But I am always ready to be corrected! Julian And of course - Happy New Year also Tony! It would be nice to meet up with you and Mick, et. al, again in 2019 Edited 31 December , 2018 by trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 31 December , 2018 Share Posted 31 December , 2018 I am not sure that the Austrian connection is relevant (other than the rifle was originally made there under contract). Actually I do not know so much about these carbines, would be interested to know about the modification - is it a standard German one? Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 1 January , 2019 Author Share Posted 1 January , 2019 Hey Tony. This mod. To the M71 Karbine is pretty rare. Some thought was just a sporterised piece.... Others say some police conversion... I forgot which book, being on the road all the time.But found a paragraph telling how Wurttenberg converted a small number to use a bayonet lug as a ( unofficial ) I think M78. A long time friend and collector say he saw 2 or 3 of other collectors, and he has one. All are same conversion. My friend used micrometer and say inside diameter on end cap/lug slightly larger than standard for a rifle . Still a mystery piece, and the L.K.K. Still seems to be a mystery? As for Steyr Mfg. They had the biggest contract for M71Karbines as well as a large contract for rifles, Even Dreyse had a small contract. These guns were for Germany, so the Regimental marking would be for Germany I believe.😄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 1 January , 2019 Share Posted 1 January , 2019 Thanks for the info on the carbine Steve, no wonder it was unfamiliar! Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 January , 2019 Share Posted 2 January , 2019 On 31/12/2018 at 19:07, msdt said: I am not sure that the Austrian connection is relevant (other than the rifle was originally made there under contract). Actually I do not know so much about these carbines, would be interested to know about the modification - is it a standard German one? Cheers, Tony OK, the rifle is dated 1876... I checked with the earliest (1877) Prussian regulations re: marking - I don't think I have anything earlier but might have something in my notes... A regular (i.e, not a script of italic) 'L' is Landwehr; a regular 'K' is Kommando, Kaiser, Kurassier, or Kriegskasse. I have gone through what I can on Prussian and Bavarian markings and the 'K.K.' combination is not there. However, it is - as I understand it - an A-H unit marking - but these are not my stronest field of knowledge. So I'll stick with it as an A-H marking, but still don't know why the 'L' is there Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 2 January , 2019 Share Posted 2 January , 2019 Hi Trajan, I still see the A-H connection as a distraction. The carbine is a German standard issue weapon, in its unaltered form it does not take a bayonet, so it makes sense that Steve's carbine was altered to take a bayonet for later issue to some kind of second line or other unit. Whereas anything is possible and firearms certainly move around a lot, I doubt that the 1871 Mauser round was the same as anything chambered in any Austrian weapons (though I haven't actually researched this) which would make the carbine less attractive for use in Austria. I had a look through Roy Williams book this morning, and the closest I could find was a bayonet marked to the gendarmerie in Wurttemberg, as per Steve's reference above: K.L.K.583 - Konigliches Landjager-Korps However as the first K here means Royal, I can't see how that unit could be stamped L.K.K. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 2 January , 2019 Share Posted 2 January , 2019 Hello! What about the FW stamp under the crown? That might be the emperor´s stamp. But FW? King Friedrich Wilhelm IV served until 1861, then came Wilhelm I. In Austria it used to be Franz Josef. I assume the L.K.K. is an austrian stamp,. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 2 January , 2019 Share Posted 2 January , 2019 Whose name´s initials would be stamped under that crown? Only those of the kings or of other souvereigns as well? Friedrich Wilhelm II of Mecklenburg for exemple reigned from 1860-1904. GreyC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 2 January , 2019 Share Posted 2 January , 2019 (edited) Here is a Gewehr 71, also with FW stamp. Probably it was normally! But I don´t know why... Edited 2 January , 2019 by The Prussian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 2 January , 2019 Share Posted 2 January , 2019 For whatever reason it seems that for some time into the reign of King Willhem I the royal cypher used on rifles remained that of King Friedrich Wilhelm IV. I only have one 1871 model, mine being a Jagerbuchse Modell 1871, also Steyr made in 1875, and marked FW too. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 2 January , 2019 Share Posted 2 January , 2019 I'm enjoying this thread and thought I would add a couple of comments. They are as follows: 1. According to Anthony Carter in "The Sword and Bayonet Makers of Imperial Germany 1871-1918" (204-209) the marking for Wilhelm I of Prussia (1861 - 1888) was either W or FW below a king's crown. 2. Although I haven't seen a photo of the marking on the rear left of the receiver of the firearm in question I suspect that there may be a mark there to the effect that this is a Mod. 71. Assuming that is the case the firearm in question was without doubt a M/71 carbine supplied under a contract concluded on 31.03.1876 between Prussia and OEWG for 50,000 carbines. The contract was amended by an additional order and the carbines went not only to Prussia but also to Bavaria and Wurttemberg. See "German Military Rifles from the Werder Rifle to the M/71/84 Rifle" by Dieter Storz pages 180-181. 3. According to "Mauser Military Rifles of the World" by Robert Ball (5th Edition) page 154: "The German Model 71 Short Rifle is somewhat of a minor mystery. It is believed that the rifle was never manufactured to this configuration, but was arsenal refurbished as a short rifle. There are no special markings signifying that this is a special model weapon. The bolt handle, as with the Model 71 carbine, is turned down. The short rifle is fitted with a lower and upper band, with a bayonet lug on the right side of the upper band" 4. I can't find any reference to this firearm in Austrian service. In any event, surely Germany only sold firearms to countries outside Europe? In the circumstances, I can see absolutely no reason to suspect that the marking on the firearm in question is anything other than German. Whether the marking was applied before or after the carbine was converted to a short rifle is another matter. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 2 January , 2019 Share Posted 2 January , 2019 I think Tony and Michael are absolutely correct. Just to reiterate for the non-specialists, there is nothing about the markings on this carbine that suggest it is anything other than a standard German issue Karabiner M1871 (initially at least before modification to take a bayonet). Large numbers of these were made in Steyr Austria by OEWG for Germany under contract. The standard Royal cypher found on these is FW for the Prussian monarch (who may have been deceased). So the Austrian connection is a "red herring" when it comes to the unit marking identification. The real mystery is why these were converted and who used them, find out that and you will answer the unit designation I believe. The theory is that they were converted to take a bayonet and utilised by some States gendarmerie or border guard which makes perfect sense. This process was replicated across much of Europe with "gendarmerie variations" being found amongst many of your rifle types. It was a way the governments could reuse or recycle weapons which were becoming obsolescent and no longer required by the frontline military. The bayonet attachment was added so that the gendarmerie could threaten the populace into line rather than using the more lethal force of a bullet. For me the interesting thing about this example is the very basic front band which incorporates the bayonet lug. Other examples shown usually have a larger front band with spring but this one is without spring. I will have to look into other similar types made by OEWG, perhaps they did make some small batches of these as short rifles (ie. they are not conversions.?) Another thing which comes to mind is if the front band is stamped with the numbers as the rest of the rifle. In that period nearly everything was stamped with numbers to match. If it is stamped perhaps it was made like this ... no stamped numbers may indicate a later conversion. From a bayonet perspective find out what bayonet it attaches. This will give a good indication of which country it served with as a short rifle. Other countries have different bayonets and of course they would have to fit if they were used there. There are a lot of questions here - the unit marking is simply the end product of the research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyC Posted 2 January , 2019 Share Posted 2 January , 2019 Very interesting comments. Thank you all for explaining the FW mark and all the other bits! GreyC (non-specialist ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 3 January , 2019 Share Posted 3 January , 2019 (edited) Hello! These are very interesting informations! Thanks a lot! So the FW war really stampoed under Wilhelm I! I didn´t know that. But what about the unit? The fact that it´s carabine, makes cavalry come into the focus. I assume something with Landwehr-Kavallerie. There were several Landwehr-Kavallerie-Regiments-Kommandos since the outbreak of the war 1914. Maybe the war-ministry did plan a single Ldw.Kav.Rgt.Kdo. in the 70s/80s? It was probably an immobile unit, became mobile at mobilization. But it´s just a guess... Cron didn´t write anything about those fortmations in that era... May I show the photos in a german bayonet-forum? They have knowledges of bayonet and rifle stamps Edited 3 January , 2019 by The Prussian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 3 January , 2019 Share Posted 3 January , 2019 Yes Mr.Prussian this weapon in its original format as the Kar.71 would certainly have been issued to the various regiments of cavalry. The Landwehr Kavallerie was something which also crossed my mind so thanks for mentioning them.! The difficulty remains with these old weapons is we don't know for certain which era they were unit marked in. Was it the unit they were initially issued to (such as a Kavallerie) or was it some second line unit that marked it after it was modified and passed along down (a non-Kavallerie unit obviously in short rifle format with bayonet). If a Prussian regiment marking I question the placement of the dots as it just doesn't look right for that early period marking. Also the numeral size doesn't appear to be fitting with regulations. These little things tend to make me think it was a later marking by some other obscure unit. One thing is certain that in its current format this weapon was never a large scale issue to the German military. There is just not enough known about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prussian Posted 3 January , 2019 Share Posted 3 January , 2019 (edited) Here is a short history of the weapon (in german...) In "Geschichte" (History) we can read, that the austrians built 60.000 rifles for the prussian army since 1877: https://www.waffensammler-kuratorium.de/Karabiner M 71/karabiner71ti.html If Steve gives me the permission to show the photos in a german bayonet forum, it could help. What I miss on "our" photos, is the rifle designation K.Mod.71 Edited 3 January , 2019 by The Prussian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now