Another Scottish Uniform to Identify

[Derek Robertson]

This is a postcard of William “Scotty” Walton possibly at Stobs Camp near Hawick.

Can anyone identify the uniform?

I'm thinking Cameronians but have been known to be wrong before (just ask my wife )

Of note is the fact that William Walton was apparently awarded the DCM and the MM. Can anyone confirm?

[DrB]

The glengarry is diced, trews are worn and a brown belt is apparent. The regular lowland regiments that wore glengarries and trews had blue facings and these are obviously buff or yellow. He is probably a "terrier" of some sort. Certainly doesn't look to be a Cameronian of the regulars. Needs further research.

..and I am not awake enough to do any research yet. Sorry.

Another pal will ID his organization, or I will get back to you later when more conscious.

DrB

[Tim Godden]

Hi there Derek,

I reckon Royal Scots from the shape of the cap badge and what look to be Hunting Stewart Tartan trews. Though to which battalion I cannot help, sorry. I did wonder if he was HLI but I think the trews do not have a distinctive enough bordered line as with the MacKenzie tartan worn by the HLI. Though I think that the cap badge is on the wonk whatever regiment he is !

All the best,

Tim

[DrB]

Not the blue facings of the Royal Scots..look to be buff or yellow, so....

DrB

[Derek Robertson]

So...........................just to confuse you a little further............

Here is a pic of a cap badge in the possession of the soldiers family:

[Tim Godden]

I take the point about the facings being the wrong colour, but if he is a Terrier than this would not be uncommon. As far as I am aware the red tunics were very haphazardly distributed in the TF. There was no uniform in pattern etc... just grab what you could and hold on to it.

His uniform, and without being to disrespectful, the way in which he is wearing it, do not say regular to me. The 1903 leather webbing and Long Lee bayonet do seem to indicate TF.

In which case I would stick to my guns that he is a Royal Scot. If this is correct then he would be either 6th, 7th, 8th or 10th battalion.

All the best,

Tim

[dycer]

No record of a Walton being awarded the DCM or MM in the 8th Royal Scots.

Assuming also the 2nd Photograph is a War Time one,he does not appear to have Pioneer Lapel Badges as worn by the 8th Royal Scots(assuming the photograpgh was taken post July/August 1915)

George

[DrB]

Yeah, that is confusing...a Cameronian cap badge.

This is getting a bit muddy...

DrB

[Derek Robertson]

Dycer,

The second pic was allegedly taken pre war as I suspect was the first.

Being that it was taken at Stobs Camp near Hawick I'm quite confident that the soldier in question was a Terrier.

The only doubt is to which type of Terrier he was.

I'm going back to much original thought that he was a Cameronian.

I say this because of the fact that William was born in Carluke in 1897. Carluke is south east of Glasgow but only about 10 miles from Hamilton - the base of the Cameronians. Also the cap badge may also prove a positive clue (or red herring).

I can't imagine anyone from Carluke joining a territorial Royal Scots regiment.

[Tim Godden]

Derek,

Carluke was, I believe, the stomping ground of the 8th HLI. Willy Angus VC was in the 8th HLI and from Carluke (Although he was attatched to the 8th RS when he won the award). The 8th HLI were a TF unit.

Though I said about the trews not seeming right, that is the obvious downside of B/W photos - the colours are hard to estimate! (that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it! )

The cap badge certainly complies, the facings I do not know I am afraid. And I could not find a Walton in the RS listings of DCM awards.

I would be interested to hear what others think on the theory. I am sure Drb will be able to help you out on HLI facings.

All the best,

Tim

[Fred W]

There is no William Walton, in any of the following Scottish Regiments, recorded as having been awarded a DCM during WW1

The Royal Scots, The Royal Scots Fusiliers, The King's Own Scottish Borderers, The Cameronians, The Black Watch, The Highland Light Infantry, Cameron Highlanders, Argyll & Sutherlanders

The only Walton in a Scottish Regiment recorded has having been awarded a DCM is 10002 Pte Walton J. M. 1st Bn The Royal Scots Fusiliers.

Where does this lead us?

Fred W

[DrB]

Fred W.....check the Seaforths? Maybe??? a terrier. The collar badges may be the stylized F with the elephant behind. Trews vice kilt and the brown belt suggest a terrier as well. Light facings...Seaforth, HLI, Argyll and Sutherlands, Gordons

HLI had "Buff" (read very light yellow or whatever) facings. (Nickname: The Pig and Whistle Light Infantry)

DrB

[Derek Robertson]

Just to put some meat on the bones, I've just received an e-mail from Grahame Walton, a relation of William Walton who first sent me the postcard to identify. And I'm listing the entire mail for you all as it has several really interesting stories in it:

I am very grateful to you for your follow-up efforts. I am very impressed with the promptness and thoroughness/rigorousness of the debate on The Great War Forum”.

William “Scotty” Walton was indeed a bit of a tear-away. I hesitate to swamp you with perhaps irrelevant information, but here is a bit of a bio:

A number of family hearsay sources indicate that William Walton was in the Black Watch in WW1, at least serving in Mesopotamia. I need to verify those sources.

He was a sniper in WW1. He was an excellent shot. His brothers (my uncles, attest that he could shoot the bottoms out of beer bottles; through their necks, when positioned at 25 yards. He even shot the stem of his father’s pipe while smoking it! He was court marshalled in WW1 for shooting the mascot, a big St Bernard dog, of another WW1 Regiment that upset him. He was apparently also reprimanded when guarding a bridge across the Tibor, by leaving his posting and diving into the river to save the life of a local in difficulty.

After WW1 he immigrated to NZ, and was farming with his brother. Farming life must have been a bit slow for him. So he went off to Australia. He had been a coal miner as a lad in Carluke Scotland, and did that at Wallerarang, near Lithgow, NSW, in 1831-33 period. Whilst there he spent a little time in prison in for riding a horse up and down the steps inside a Lithgow pub. He then had 8 months serving as crew on a boat, called the Ballina. From which I am sure he got a taste of Papua New Guinea, and gold mining in the Edie Creek area, near Wau.

From Edie Creek mining he was doing PNG patrols, whatever that meant. Maybe a little bit of “head-hunting”.

He was living with an Australian partner in PNG for many years, finally marrying her in 1939, after she gave birth to their only child (my cousin) the previous year.

He enlisted for WW2 in Australia twice, with different dates of birth. I am currently seeking details of his first enrolment, through the Australian Archives. I have details of his second, in Feb 1941. His “Mobilization Attestation Form” has him as born 23.3.1897 at Carluke (true), occupation Patrol Officer (probably in Papua New Guinea, an Australian territory at that time), and previously served in “2nd Batt Black Watch, Scotland” (which I still need to verify). This second enrolment didn’t last long. He had enrolled for the Provost Corps but discharged within a month; as were many others. Apparently many enrolees did not have the desired attributes for this newly established Corps.

Not to give up, he was an engineer/greaser on a series of ships during WW2, starting with the troopship the Queen Elizabeth (August 1941 to April 1942). I have confirmed this on his Australian Merchant Navy personal record card.

Why I am telling you this, is because there was a story about him in (I think) a Perth Australia daily. I have seen the clipping (undated) and I have retyped it and it is attached as a Word document. It briefly mentions his Black Watch period, and medals, but goes on to report a very colourful WW2 experience, as judged by the article’s title: “Twice Sunk, Twice Bombed”. I am currently using another internet board to check the truth of the WW2 claims: what ships, what sub, when? But so far without success. The first event, the submarine attack, supposedly took place between his time on the QE (April 1942) and his ship back from San Pedro (presumably California USA) to Auckland NZ (in August 1942).

His wife by this stage was living in Sydney. He was a tough man. He would often come home drunk, leading to abuses at home. His wife kicked him out, his daughter last saw him when she was just 5. He moved back to PNG, sent the occasional photo, including one of his new Asian, or PNG, “wife”, even though he never divorced.

I have recently obtained his death certificate. He died in Cairns in November 1958, aged 61. I am trying to put it all together as part of the family tree. But I am looking to verify the claims and the facts. So far most have born true. But I cannot agree with the assertion, in the article that “For some months after war was declared Walton was not aware of its existence.” He got married in Sydney on 26th September 1939, the same month that Britain, Australia, and New Zealand entered WW2.

I have rambled a bit on his background. But you can see that this “Scotty” was a bit of a character, and I am looking to sort the wheat from the chaff.

To comment on some aspects

The last (10th) entry in the Great War Forum queries the DCM claim for William Walton in a number of Scottish regiments. What would “Fred W” source of information be? Where does it leave us Fred asks? If, all Scottish DCMs have been checked out then the claim of a DCM may be B.S. But his family say they have seen some of these WW1 medals, held by his partner at the time, but no where to be seen for the last 50 years, except for the Glengarry hat badge.

I had discussed the photographs, the uniform, and the WW1 involvement of my uncle, with another cousin of mine, Heather McFarlane. I didn’t realise she had done it but she emailed the photos to the archivist at the Black Watch museum. He responds as follows:

From: BW Archivist [mailto:archives@theblackwatch.co.uk]

Thank you for your e-mail of 14 January.

The soldier in the photograph is not wearing the uniform of The Black Watch. He is wearing the full dress uniform pre 1914 - Doublet, trews, etc. fay4

The badge in the photograph which you sent is that of the Cameronians (26th & 90th Foot). This regiment was disbanded in 1968 and, so far as I am aware, the Museum was closed.

I am not convinced, however, that this is the badge worn on the Glengarry. The shape seems to be different.

Was there any connection with the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders? I would say no

Thomas B Smyth

Archivist

So where are we now at?

The photo of young William at Hawich in trews and doublet, is not a Black Watch uniform but rather it is a ?????

How does the Highland Light Infantry sound to you? The Walton family lore talks about William’s time in the HLI and the Black Watch. Could he have been in one, the HLI prior to WW!, for training etc, then to war with the BW?

The hat badge could easily have been of different descent to the photos. The photos, originals, came from William’s daughter. The Glengarry (?) badge passed through three family members and its origins may well have become fudged. It seems from the expert feedback that this is a Cameronian badge.

Would you like to clarify for me the “Terrior” reference? Is this the Scottish Territorials? William would have been 17 at the outbreak of WW1. Family lore had it that he put his age up to enlist.

I came across the following reference, but not too sure whether it is relevant to our Walton situation:

In 1881 the lowland Scottish Regiments adopted modified highland dress of doublet and tartan trews and, whilst clad in Government tartan the basic Black Watch was "differenced" with many different over checks as seen in the Lamont for the Cameronians. From web-site at: http://www.tartans.scotland.net/tartan_types/regimental.cfm

You would be welcome to adapt any of the above if you want to add to, or conclude, the discussion thread at The Great War Forum.

Again my thanks to you for your excellent efforts.

Regards

Grahame

[Derek Robertson]

And here is the text from the article mentioned:

ARTICLE IN AN UNDATED, UNNAMED, AUSTRALIAN NEWSPAPER

HEADING: TWICE SUNK, TWICE BOMBED, GUNNED

Torpedoed twice in five days and receiving in the left leg a Jap bullet which he still carries there, is but one of the experiences of William (Scotty) Walton.

Another was when he was a member of the crew of a small American vessel which was dive-bombed by three Japanese planes, the last of which destroyed the boat by a suicide dive to the deck.

Now in Perth, anxiously awaiting for a ship, any ship, which will take him back to New Guinea and the war, “Scotty” Walton today outlined his adventurous life.

A Scot by birth, it was only natural that during the last war Walton should join the famous Black Watch Regiment, in which he won the D.C.M. and M.M.

Distinguished Conduct Medal was awarded to him for holding up a Turkish attack with a machinegun for 17 hours without relief.

Thirsting for adventure, “Scotty”travelled about the world for some years, spent 14 years in New Guinea. Here he carried out exploration and police patrol work, which often meant the tracking down and capturing of headhunters, particularly dangerous since these natives valued the head of a whiteman above all others.

Headhunters, he claims, believe in no god but worship “debbil-debbil” although the mission boys recognised a “feller Jehovah”.

SUNK BY SUB

For some months after war was declared Walton was not aware of its existence. When he found out he travelled south to enlist in the AIF., was rejected because of medical reasons, when he joined the Mercantile Marine as a diesel engineer.

His first big adventure in this service was when his ship was torpedoed by a jap submarine. Crew tumbled into two lifeboats, and pulled away from the sinking ship, to be met by savage machinegun fire from the sub which by then surfaced.

Of the 13 men in “Scotty’s” lifeboat five were killed and most of the others wounded. Walton himself was shot in the left leg, still carries the bullet which has not been extracted.

There had been 42 manning the ship. Now there were 17, many of them wounded.

After 16½ hours in the water “Scotty” and other survivors were picked up by a Norwegian vessel. Four and a half days later it, too, was torpedoed by a Jap submarine 100 miles off the American coast.

By a (unreadable word) of luck the crew managed (unreadable few words) ship to America (unreadable words) a great welcome.

Walton was flown to San Pedro where he joined a ship bound for New Zealand.

DIVE BOMBED

From New Zealand to Sydney by plane then to an American ship was the next step. With this vessel “Scotty” Walton visited Milne Bay, Port Moresby, Darwin, Timor, landing provisions for the troops.

His journeys in this boat were destined to end when one day three Jap dive-bombers were sighted. The first two planes missed with their bombs, but the third crashed on to the deck with his bombs, almost splitting the (unreadable words).

Luckily the ship was near shore and only the donkeyman was on board during the attack. Nothing more was seen of him.

Walton considers the Y.M.C.A. is “the biggest thing” in the New Guinea and other battles.

“They give you every comfort possible,” he said. “They give you a hot drink when you need it most. They try to make a war-torn jungle into a home from home.

“I’m of no religion, but if I was it would be that of the Y.M.C.A.”

“Scotty” hopes to join a ship very soon. He will not leave thw sea while the war is on, he says, because diesel engineers are needed, but after the war he intends to return to New Guinea.

He has a home to build again, perhaps over the ruins of the other building at Eddie Creek which was destroyed by Japanese bombs.

[Photo of W. Walton included]

Ends

[Fred W]

Dr B,

There is no Walton in the Seaforths recorded has having been awarded a DCM in WW1

Grahame,

My source is "Recipients of the Distinguished Conduct Medal 1914-1920" by R.W.Walker.

FRED w

[Blackblue]

This appears to be his second WW2 enlistment into the Australian Military Forces, as outlined, with the Provost Corps:

http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/script/veteran.a...eteranID=316917

This appears to be his first enlistment. Middle name Douglas with NOK listed as Francis and not Fanny. The place of enlistment is also Moore Park. It appears he was a Sapper in a Railway Unit.

http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/script/veteran.a...eteranID=131061

You can request his service papers here from Australian National Archives. There should be a reason outlined for his discharges:

Enlistment 1:

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/ItemDetail.asp?M=0&B=4834379

Enlsitment 2:

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/ItemDetail.asp?M=0&B=5676570

Rgds

Tim D

[DrB]

Thanks, Fred W. So much for the Seaforth theory.

Trying to put all the clues together, I would guess that the picture is that of Scotty in a Territorial uniform of the HLI. The collar badges of the Regular HLI were miniatures of the cap badge, a facing pair of right and left. Those collars are not HLI "regular" collars. Note also he is not wearing the '07 pattern sword bayonet, but rather what appears to be the 1889 Lee-Enfield pattern. "Terrier" stuff or very early war.

This must have been taken prior to his joining the Black Watch.

Upon reading his exploits, Scotty must have been quite a character, yet he looks so innocent!

DrB

[Blackblue]

It appears there are two William Walton's and a William A Walton who served with the Black Watch. There are no William D Walton's serving with this regiment.

http://www.documentsonline.nationalarchive...=1&mediaarray=*

Cannot find anything in the London Gazette for these men though.

TD

[FredJCarss]

If its of any help there was a Pte W Walton No.11568 wounded twice 1916 & 1917 in the Black Watch.

What do you think??

Fred

[Guest GrahameW]

I am the nephew of the above William "Scottie" Walton, and have just registered and joined this forum.

My thanks to Derek Robertson for posting my initial query and photos, and to all of you, through your responses, which has helped me unravel some of the unknowns and mysteries.

Derek has asked me if I could obtain a clearer, more detailed, photo of William (the first photo above), and I will (try to) post this in the next few days.

I would really like to verify/confirm that William Douglas Walton was in the Black Watch. I gather all/most of the enlistment and service records for servicemen in WW1 were destroyed by bombing and fire in London in WW2, so that avenue is closed. There are records of (some) WW1 medal decorations, but it seems that there is no evidence of a DCM to William Walton in the Black Watch, or for most other Scottish regiments.

I am interested in Fred's most recent posting that "Pte W Walton No.11568 (was)wounded twice 1916 & 1917 in the Black Watch". How would I find out more about this, and whether the Service Number could reveal more information?

It is probably straying a little from the focus of this forum, but I would like to learn a little more about the Scottish Territorials just prior WW1, and the process of Regiment enlistment for WW1. William was 17 at the beginning of WW1, and he supposedly put his age up to get into the HLI, or Black Watch (or Territorials). In contrast he put his age down by 10 years to get into the WW2 Australian Railways Unit! Thanks for that reference TD (BlackBlue).

Again, my thanks for the info generated.

Grahame Walton

[DrB]

Mr Walton...you could do no better than getting ahold of the book "The Territorial Battalions, a Pictorial History" by Ray Westlake.

Far more esoteric and much harder to find is the book on Scottish volunteers prior to 1908 and the formation of the Territorial Regiments. That one is called "Records of the Scottish Volunteer Force, 1859-1908" by Grierson. Perhaps you could find it in a library or get it by inter-library loan.

Good luck.

DrB

[FredJCarss]

Grahame

If the man I told you about is your man Pte W Walton No.11568 who was wounded appeared in the Published Wounded Lists in "The Scotsman" newspaper on the following dates :-

23/05/1916

24/05/1916

22/12/1917

The first two dates are I feel an official error and cover the same wounding.

All the entries say that the lists were compiled under "Various Dates" ie no one specific date, this happened when there was a lot going on and Roll Call could not be done due to the enemy upsetting normal routine.

I have checked where I have indexed the regimental magazine, the War Diaries I hold plus a number of published works and my own files built up over many years to no avail. This does not mean that there is nothing to find it just means you have to be determined and dig in for the long haul.

His regimental number does not give any further clues.

I will add him to my own list of people to watch out for.

Fred

[Guest GrahameW]

I promised to post a better, more detailed, picture of William "Scotty" Walton, the first picture posted above.

So I got a photo shop to give me a "best possible quality" digital of the original, 90 year + photo.

Fingers crossed in that I hope it posts OK, below.

To summarise:

DrB believes that the picture is that of Scotty in a Territorial uniform of the Highland Light Infantry.

And Tim Godden suggests that it could be the 8th HLI, because William Walton was a Carluke lad.

Any advances?

Thanks for your inputs

Grahame Walton

(nephew)

[Tim Godden]

Hi Grahame,

The cap badge does seem to be that of the HLI. So that does narrow the conundrum down a little. But exact identification of the battalion is still tricky.

All the various bits of uniform and webbing do suggest he was a Terrier as well, but still, no direct reference to a single unit.

All the best and thanks for the enlarged photo,

Tim

[Derek Robertson]

Grahame has sent me 2 further photographs of "Scotty Walton":

Does this one show a Cameronian badge?