"Alias" due to his occupation?

[ss002d6252]

The fact he was an apprentice might be an explanation - an apprentice couldn't enlist without his masters' agreement and the master could claim his apprentice for discharge.

Craig

[Ivor Anderson]

Hi Heather, I checked back to see if there was an Anderson connection in the family. Nothing evident as you probably already know:

David Smylie was born on 26th January 1895 when his parents were living at 80 Coolbeg St., Belfast. His mother's maiden name was Cunningham.

The parents were married at Ekenhead Church, Belfast on 14 April 1884 (hence 27 years on their 1911 census). His Dad was a carpenter at marriage.

The grandfather was also David. He enlisted by 1915 and would have been 20 on 26-01-15. Would he still have been an apprentice carpenter?

If so, would he have joined up so close to the end of his apprenticeship?

Edited 29 May , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[ss002d6252]

32 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Hi Heather, I checked back to see if there was an Anderson connection in the family. Nothing evident as you probably already know:

David Smylie was born on 26th January 1895 when his parents were living at 80 Coolbeg St., Belfast. His mother's maiden name was Cunningham.

The parents were married at Ekenhead Church, Belfast on 14 April 1884 (hence 27 years on their 1911 census). His Dad was a carpenter at marriage.

The grandfather was also David. He enlisted by 1915 and would have been 20 on 26-01-15. Would he still have been an apprentice carpenter?

If so, would he have joined up so close to the end of his apprenticeship?

At that time an apprenticeship was normally 7 years.

Craig

[Ivor Anderson]

Would he have started the apprenticeship at 14? If so, it could have been an impulsive FOMO and to prevent his master/parents tracing him.

If he never finished his carpentry apprenticeship that may be why he later worked as a docker?

Edited 29 May , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[ss002d6252]

14 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Would he have started the apprenticeship at 14? If so, it could have been an impulsive FOMO and to prevent his master/parents tracing him.

If he never finished his carpentry apprenticeship that may be why he later worked as a docker?

 

From what I can see the school-leaving age was 14 at the time so out of school and in to an apprenticeship would make sense.

 

Craig

[corisande]

The problem here is that we can speculate, but it is impossible to be certain without more evidence

 

His mother died in 1912, so there could have been problems with his father. He may have put a local girl in the family way, he might have had a police record, he might have been getting out of an apprenticeship (that could have been with his father)

 

The challenge is t get a proveable reason for his alias. My feeling is that at best we have a 10% chance

[Ivor Anderson]

True. I never considered the possibility that he was an apprentice to his father.  

Would the RI Rifles not have been a more likely regiment for a Belfast lad to join? Perhaps part of his track covering?

His father seems to have died 21 February 1924 aged 65. Buried with the mother in Belfast City Cemetery.

His mother died in Leitrim townland, Ballyward/Banbridge District on 29 July 1912 aged 54. Her sister Sarah Cunningham was present.

 

Edited 29 May , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[bonkers82]

2 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Would he have started the apprenticeship at 14? If so, it could have been an impulsive FOMO and to prevent his master/parents tracing him.

If he never finished his carpentry apprenticeship that may be why he later worked as a docker?

Wow.   That makes so much sense!!    What is FOMO?

[bonkers82]

Wow, you guys are amazing.   Where could i find the info on his mum passing in 1912?    I cant find much on eleanor cunningham nor his dad, david smylie senior

[Ivor Anderson]

FOMO = 'fear of missing out' (too much time with teenagers!)  Perhaps he saw many of his friends joining up.

Pre 1922 all Ireland BMD Certificates are free here: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp

 

 

Edited 30 May , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[corisande]

Pre 1922 all Ireland BMD Certificates are free

 

You need to bear in mind that they only exist from 1865 (Protestant marriages from 1845) to 1922 for the whole of Ireland

 

Records are still available post 1922 partition for all the 26 counties (but there are date limits that differ for births, marriages and deaths)

 

Northern Ireland records are available post 1922 from PRONI, who have the worst information site that I have ever had the misfortune to witness. The extraction of BMD inormation being only just short of impossible.

 

If you cannot get the data you want on the Irish PRO site, then you have to resort to church records, which are a difficult source to plumb

[Alisonmallen62]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

Northern Ireland records are available post 1922 from PRONI, who have the worst information site that I have ever had the misfortune to witness. The extraction of BMD inormation being only just short of impossible.

Agreed!  Staff are not any help either and I have tried hard.  Good luck

[bonkers82]

Thank you all so much for your help.   Now have a few leads i can try and trace down.   Nothing worse than hitting a stone wall, plus having the memory of a fish doesnt help lol

[Ivor Anderson]

I notice that David's MIC & 1914-15 star roll both give his date of disembarkation in the war theatre as 27 July 1915, which does not fit the 5th Bn. dates?

His medal roll does state 5th and then 5/6 bn. (the 2 battalions amalgamated 2.11.1916) 

The 5th Bn. RIF landed at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli on 7th August 1915, and this is the date on the MICs & star rolls of those soldiers around him on the medal roll:

e.g. William Price 17138 who served with 5th and 5/6 battalions, and also James Reid 17139 and John McKeown 17141.

The 2 battalions had sailed from Liverpool for Gallipoli (via Mudros) on 7th July 1915 with 31st Brigade, 10th (Irish) Division.

His theatre entry date may be an error? How could he arrive in theatre before the battalion?

 

James Reid 17139 got a silver war badge. His SWB roll gives his enlistment date as 27 November 1914. Patrick Passmore 17243 on the same page enlisted 7 December 1914, so David (alias William Anderson) must have enlisted between these dates aged 19! (Ancestry SWB image below):

 

[ss002d6252]

2 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

 

The 2 battalions had sailed from Liverpool for Gallipoli (via Mudros) on 7th July 1915 with 31st Brigade, 10th (Irish) Division.

 

The battalion landed on the peninsula on 7 August but theatre 2b included more than just the physical peninsula, it also included the islands used for staging for the troops.

 

Is 27 July the actual date of entry in to the theatre ? I've seen cases before where some clerks have used the date of leaving the UK and others the date of arrival in theatre. so there can be a range of different dates. In the cases of Gallipoli I would suspect that no man, technically speaking, should have the date of landing on the peninsula as he would have already entered the theatre at that point and it should, strictly speaking, be the actual date of entry to the theatre that was used.

Craig

[Ivor Anderson]

On 30/05/2021 at 18:45, ss002d6252 said:

In the cases of Gallipoli I would suspect that no man, technically speaking, should have the date of landing on the peninsula as he would have already entered the theatre at that point and it should, strictly speaking, be the actual date of entry to the theatre that was used.

It is very possible that a variety of entry dates were used. 

 

This postcard photo shows the 5th RIF in training at Basingstoke in 1915.

Source: https://www.ciroca.org.uk/first-world-war-links/infantry-regiments-1914-18/royal-irish-fusiliers/

 

[bonkers82]

11 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

It is very possible that a variety of entry dates were used. 

 

This postcard photo shows the 5th RIF in training at Basingstoke in 1915.

Source: https://www.ciroca.org.uk/first-world-war-links/infantry-regiments-1914-18/royal-irish-fusiliers/

WOW.   Youse folks know what your doing and where to get the info.   I massively appreciate all the work each of you has done x

[bonkers82]

On 11/03/2014 at 22:23, sotonmate said:

Heather

David Smylie was with 5 Battalion Royal Irish Fusiliers. I have the page from the Medal Rolls and I will send it to you on receipt of your e-mail. To do that click on my name to the left of this message and you will see a Send me a Message box at top right.

There are four War Diaries for 5 RIF. The French segment was his last war zone before the end of the war,from Jun 1918 to Jun 1919,not to say that he was there right to Jun 1919 though. Diary ref in the Kew Discovery database is WO95/1975. His first war zone was at Gallipoli,then to Salonika,then to Egypt,then to France.He will have sent the card a few days after the Armistice ending the war in Nov 1918.

Can i ask what a war diary is?  Many thanks in advance x

[corisande]

 

Can i ask what a war diary is? 

 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/operational-records-known-as-war-diaries/

[Ivor Anderson]

France 1918-19: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352871

[sotonmate]

2 hours ago, bonkers82 said:

Can i ask what a war diary is?  Many thanks in advance x

Just took a look at the pages of the War Diary for 5th RIFusiliers from departure UK at Devonport on troop transport s.s. ANDANIA on 12 July 1915.

Date of arrival at Mudros, an island base camp for troops heading for Gallipoli, where it arrived 26 July and some troops landed on the 27th,which is where the date into theatre is derived. A few days later the troops joined troop carrier OSMANIEH which landed them at Suvla Bay Gallipoli on 7th August at 0430 in the morning when already fighting was going on ashore.

If you can access Ancestry UK,sometimes free trial or you can log in at a local Library,you can read the pages. Reference is:

Royal Irish Fusiliers 5th Battalion and choose a date of 1 August 1915 and you can see all of the entries from early July when the battalion was at Basingstoke prior to moving by rail to Devonport and shipping out. The file reference is WO95/4296, though you only use the 4296 bit in the Remarks box on Ancestry UK.

 

Later: I see that you also ask me by message if I have anything else to send from my records. I found my diary for the visit to Kew in March 2014 (!) and you may not be surprised to know that the photos connected to it have been deleted from my memstick so I won't be able to say what some other Diaries said too, though I did send you the Medal Roll at the time,and to the same e-address that you have given me today.

Edited 31 May , 2021 by sotonmate

[bonkers82]

2 hours ago, corisande said:

 

Can i ask what a war diary is? 

 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/operational-records-known-as-war-diaries/

Thank you x

[bonkers82]

21 minutes ago, sotonmate said:

Just took a look at the pages of the War Diary for 5th RIFusiliers from departure UK at Devonport on troop transport s.s. ANDANIA on 12 July 1915.

Date of arrival at Mudros, an island base camp for troops heading for Gallipoli, where it arrived 26 July and some troops landed on the 27th,which is where the date into theatre is derived. A few days later the troops joined troop carrier OSMANIEH which landed them at Suvla Bay Gallipoli on 7th August at 0430 in the morning when already fighting was going on ashore.

If you can access Ancestry UK,sometimes free trial or you can log in at a local Library,you can read the pages. Reference is:

Royal Irish Fusiliers 5th Battalion and choose a date of 1 August 1915 and you can see all of the entries from early July when the battalion was at Basingstoke prior to moving by rail to Devonport and shipping out. The file reference is WO95/4296, though you only use the 4296 bit in the Remarks box on Ancestry UK.

 

Later: I see that you also ask me by message if I have anything else to send from my records. I found my diary for the visit to Kew in March 2014 (!) and you may not be surprised to know that the photos connected to it have been deleted from my memstick so I won't be able to say what some other Diaries said too, though I did send you the Medal Roll at the time,and to the same e-address that you have given me today.

Must back track with emails.   I often hit brick walls and leave research for a bit then try again, not realising previous queries, that or old age setting in lol

[bonkers82]

Was able to back track messages back to 2014, so a good bit of writing and printing to do lol