13th Middlesex Regiment

[tankie]

25 minutes ago, Nessie123 said:

Hi all..  I'm looking for a photo of 13th Middlesex Regiment 1915-1918. My GGrandfather was drafted to the Western Front after training. He was a Private and his name is Fredrick May (DOB 20/3/1897) Regimental no. 242652/8133, residing in Hammersmith.  His name was sometimes spelt Frederick.  I've attached his Army cards - one you will note has been stamped "DEAD" however, he did not die during the war?  Any and all information would be appreciated - especially any direction to photos!

Many thanks

Hi There your Gt Grandfather served with the 13th Battn, but was eventually discharged due to wounds 10/10/17 serving with 2/8th battn Middx, , as for photos of the 13th they are very hard to come by, The war museum in London holds quite a few but unless your G grandfather is named in any of them he will be hard to find, i have one group photo of the 13th but its unnamed unfortunately.

Edited 3 October , 2022 by tankie

[tankie]

His pension records also exist but i assume you already have those? i will check war diaries to see if hes named anywhere, but again unlikely 

 

Cheers

Tankie

[Nessie123]

Thanks Tankie!  I would still love to see the photo that you have

[tankie]

Just now, Nessie123 said:

Thanks Tankie!  I would still love to see the photo that you have

Anytime glad to help, theres a good chance he knew my G grandfather an brothers also from Hammersmith , i will find the photo an upload it for you to see

[tankie]

3 minutes ago, Nessie123 said:

Thanks Tankie!  I would still love to see the photo that you have

13th Middx circa 1916

[Nessie123]

Wow!  Just imagine.... I only have the one photo of him, so he could be any one of them!  Thank you for sharing.

[tankie]

3 minutes ago, Nessie123 said:

Wow!  Just imagine.... I only have the one photo of him, so he could be any one of them!  Thank you for sharing.

Wow is the word as he also served in the same company as my Gt Grandfather "C" Company, heres your Gt Grandfathers casualty /Medical form 

[tankie]

Your Gt Grandfather was a very lucky man as he was wounded at the battle of Guillemont 18th Aug 1916 where the 13th took massive casualties 18/19 including my Gt Grandfather who died from his wounds 

Edited 3 October , 2022 by tankie
mis spelling

[Nessie123]

How unfortunate that your GGrandfather died from his wounds.  Did he make it home?  I note that Fred has 2 Regimental numbers (242652 and 8133).  Can you tell me what the difference is at all?  Also, I note on his medical form, in the last column, it states FURLOUGH.  Is this where Fred was discharged to?

Thank you again for all of your information!  And to think our GGrandfathers could have possibly been mates!

[AndrewSid]

Furlough in this case refers to a period of leave. 

[Nessie123]

Thank you Old Sweats

[tankie]

On 03/10/2022 at 23:51, Nessie123 said:

How unfortunate that your GGrandfather died from his wounds.  Did he make it home?  I note that Fred has 2 Regimental numbers (242652 and 8133).  Can you tell me what the difference is at all?  Also, I note on his medical form, in the last column, it states FURLOUGH.  Is this where Fred was discharged to?

Thank you again for all of your information!  And to think our GGrandfathers could have possibly been mates!

Hi yes he made it home, heres a quick write up for you an also relevant to your Ggrandfather, an yes good possibility they were mates .

 

July 1916 found the Regiment back in France on the Somme on the Western Front.

 

By August they had been involved in the battle of Delville wood before coming into the frontline trenches in front of Trones wood just outside the village of Guillemont.

 

August 18th the 13th Middlesex were to attack the German frontline at Guillemont this was a disaster in the making as from war diaries the High Command decided to attack on a broad front in total daylight at 2.45pm during the afternoon of the 18th after a heavy barrage on the German frontline.

 

Excerpts from War diaries tell a grave story of events as follows:

 

"This attack was to be part of an assault on a wide front, and the objective assigned to the 7th Northamptons was a stone quarry on the western edge of the village of Guillemont. The 3rd Rifle Brigade, attacking on the left, were to take the station and the 13th Middlesex Regiment to attack on the south side of the village. It had been decided that this attack, unlike the majority of previous battles, should take place in the afternoon, and it was hoped thereby to surprise the enemy with a daylight assault.

 

At 2.45 p.m. the barrage lifted and the battalion left their trenches

 

The attack on the flanks meanwhile had proceeded with varying success. That on the left, made by the 3rd Rifle Brigade, had taken its objective, and was in touch with the left of the battalion not far from two goods wagons that represented all that the bombardment had left of Guillemont Station. On the right, however, the 13th Middlesex Regiment, after reaching their first objective, had been cut down almost to a man by machine-gun fire from a strong point on their right that had so far resisted all assaults, and had been obliged to fall back almost to their original line, after leaving all four company commanders dead in the German line.

 

 

During this disastrous attack my Great Grandfather Henry was shot through the head and blinded how he made it back to the British trenches is unknown as the fighting went onto well into the 19th August all I do know is his brother James survived the attack.

 

My Great Grandfather was evacuated back to the UK by Hospital ship; he was taken to the Auxiliary Military Hospital In Ealing West London where he fought for his life for over 2 months before he succumbed to his wounds and died on 1st November 1916 Leaving behind a wife and my Grandfather who was nearly 4 at the time of his dads death.

 

[Nessie123]

Gee...  so sombre...  I can't even imagine what they were feeling at the time.  Compared to today, it all seems so surreal.  All of the stories I have been told over the years just don't include what these men (some, only boys) experienced.  My heart is heavy.  Thanks again Tankie to all of the information that you have provided on my GGrandfather who has always been looked down upon.  I have looked at him from a different angle and new light.

[tankie]

6 minutes ago, Nessie123 said:

Gee...  so sombre...  I can't even imagine what they were feeling at the time.  Compared to today, it all seems so surreal.  All of the stories I have been told over the years just don't include what these men (some, only boys) experienced.  My heart is heavy.  Thanks again Tankie to all of the information that you have provided on my GGrandfather who has always been looked down upon.  I have looked at him from a different angle and new light.

My Grandfather who was seriously wounded at Dunkirk an said his generation couldnt have done what his fathers generation did in WW1 , they were all heroes in my eyes,I served for over 20 years an my generation couldnt have done it. And never look down on your GGrandfather he was one of the heroes who made the call to arms an keep in mind the battle he was wounded in it was a slaughter, my GGrandfather was just 22 when he died,

Glad iv been able to add to his story for you.

And remember

AT THE GOING DOWN OF THE SUN

AND IN THE MORNING 

WE WILL REMEMBER THEM

[Nessie123]

God bless you Tankie and all of those who have served 

[tankie]

1 hour ago, Nessie123 said:

God bless you Tankie and all of those who have served 

Thank you an im glad i managed to help .Take care

[MSM]

Hi Tankie,

My great-grandfather, Edwin Francis Mathews, served in 13th Middlesex, with regimental number G/1009.  I have his MIC, medal rolls and pension records from Ancestry, which confirm that he served in 13th Middlesex from September 1914 to January 1917, entering theatre on 1 September 1915 and returning to the UK on 27 July 1916.  He was transferred to 5th Middlesex in Jan 1917, then the Royal West Kent's in Feb 1917 before being discharged in Sep 1917.  The belief in the family that he was injured due to to gas, but I have not found anything to confirm that.

I wondered if you might have any additional information about him, beyond that above?

Many thanks, Matthew

[Gunner 87]

3 hours ago, MSM said:

Hi Tankie,

My great-grandfather, Edwin Francis Mathews, served in 13th Middlesex, with regimental number G/1009.  I have his MIC, medal rolls and pension records from Ancestry, which confirm that he served in 13th Middlesex from September 1914 to January 1917, entering theatre on 1 September 1915 and returning to the UK on 27 July 1916.  He was transferred to 5th Middlesex in Jan 1917, then the Royal West Kent's in Feb 1917 before being discharged in Sep 1917.  The belief in the family that he was injured due to to gas, but I have not found anything to confirm that.

I wondered if you might have any additional information about him, beyond that above?

Many thanks, Matthew

Hi Matthew. I'm sure you have thought of this as you appear to be well verse with Edwin's service but if not, have you considered trawling the 13th Middlesex War Diary? I had a look near to the time Edwin returned to the UK but considering he may have spent time in hospital in France after, as you believe, being gassed, the incident may have take place earlier. The War Diary is unlikely to mention Edwin by name but most probably, as it has in July 1916, recorded an incident where casualties were caused by gas. This may identify a 'likely' date and place where Edwin became a casualty. 

The 5th Middlesex didn't leave the UK and I'm sure the RWK battalion Edwin was posted to was likewise so I'm sure his injury occurred when with the 13th. This of course is corroborated by his service record which shows him UK from 28th July until discharge. 

The War Diary is free to download at the National Archives once registered at https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353325

[MSM]

Hi, thanks for the reply.  Yes, I have a copy of the war diary, and there are a number of potential gas events in the months preceeding his return to the UK.  There was an attack on 29/30th April with a large number of casualties and a smaller attack on 17th June, although the diary doesn't mention casualties.  I didn't see the attack in July in the diary (probably my poor reading of the handwriting), can you confirm the date?  

I don't have a feel for how long a soldier would have likely been treated before being returned to the UK, so I was hoping that Tankie may have some other records which could narrow it it down.

Thanks again, Matthew

[Matlock1418]

On 03/10/2022 at 08:34, Nessie123 said:

I've attached his Army cards - one you will note has been stamped "DEAD" however, he did not die during the war? 

Frederick MAY, 8133, 242652, Middlesex Regt

These are actually a pair of disabilty pension claim cards [either side of a medal index card] - the stamped and annotated DEAD 20/11/24 on one refers to the pension claim becoming dead/ended on or before that date - death was one potential explanation but it could simply be because he stopped claiming voluntarily or because he no longer qualified.

Unfortunately the main awards file is long lost - most were deliberately destroyed once their use was ended so this seems likely here.

M

Edited 26 October , 2022 by Matlock1418
expand

[Nessie123]

On 27/10/2022 at 03:53, Matlock1418 said:

Frederick MAY, 8133, 242652, Middlesex Regt

These are actually a pair of disabilty pension claim cards [either side of a medal index card] - the stamped and annotated DEAD 20/11/24 on one refers to the pension claim becoming dead/ended on or before that date - death was one potential explanation but it could simply be because he stopped claiming voluntarily or because he no longer qualified.

Unfortunately the main awards file is long lost - most were deliberately destroyed once their use was ended so this seems likely here.

M

Thanks Old Sweats - just came across your reply