EEF Jewish fallen remembered

[michaeldr]

Late yesterday afternoon, the fallen of Allenby's Jewish Battalions were remembered at Mount Scopus CWGC Cemetery;

the 38th & 39th Battalions, Royal Fusiliers, who fought in the Megiddo battles as part of Chaytor's Force, and the further Jewish battalions of RFs, who came forward later.

 

The ceremony was organized and led by Ms Dorit Perry of 'Giving a Face to the Fallen' and Mr Eran Tearosh of the Society for the Heritage of WWI in Israel (Eran is also a member of this forum).

I am happy to say that family members of some of the fallen were able to be present, as well as a relative of Lt. Ze'ev Jabotinsky who did so much work to persuade the War Office in London to establish the Jewish Battalions of the Royal Fusiliers. The UK's Assistant Defence Attachê, Andy Porte led the wreath laying and spoke at the grave-sides.

 

An account and photographs are to be seen in today's article in the Haaretz newspaper
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-a-century-later-jewish-legion-s-fallen-reap-their-glory-1.6548024?=&ts=_1539256682842
Access may require registration, however this is free.
 

Edited 11 October , 2018 by michaeldr

[Eran Tearosh]

Thanks Michael

 

The Internet version requires registration, limited to 6 articles. However, this version includes that great photo of Michael himself, laying a flower at one of the graves. The photo opens on the front page and can be seen even without reading the article from the Internet. 

 

Attached is a PDF of the article (Without Michael's photo)

 

Mt. Scopus - English.pdf

 

 

Eran

Edited 11 October , 2018 by Eran Tearosh

[rob carman]

2/Lt Joshua Levy 1/5 Norfolks on Middlesborough’s memorial to its Jewish dead.  His unit is given as  1/5 Bn.  CWGC has him in 1/4 Bn.  Storey calls him Josiah Levy. He was the son of Lewis Levy, a pawnbroker, and Sarah Levy.  Both came from Russia to England before 1882.  Pte Joshua Levy attested on 2 December 1914 and started in Royal Sussex Regiment.  He was quickly promoted L/Sgt before being commissioned 28 September1915 into the Norfolk Regt. 2/Lt Levy was killed in action on 19 April 1917 during Gaza II.  In 1911 Levy, aged 18, lived wioth his parents and was an assistantto his dad.   He is commemorated in  Gaza War Cemetery (Image http://www.ww1-yorkshires.org.uk/html-files/middlesbrough-jewish-synagogue.htm).

 

 

 

[Guest]

Mates,

 

We should not forget that Jews fought on all sides during the Egyptian and Palestine Campaiges, not just the British RF Bn's.

 

The Ottoman Army had large numbers of Jews in there Military, from serving Regular soldiers and officers, to local raised Labor and other units formed for area service.

 

Lest we forget 

S.B

[michaeldr]

Thanks for adding that Rob

Second Lieutenant Levy is also mentioned in this thread by Ray - 

 

[Ben678]

@michaeldr & @Eran Tearosh - Were all Jewish members in the EEF affiliated in one way or another with Jewish Battalion?
I am looking into Private J. Ginsberg (service number 6144) - he was a veteran soldier in RASC and later assigned to the Connaught Rangers Regiment. When the Connaught regimnet was sent to Egypt, some records that concern him state he is EEF, but on his grave they used the emblem of the Connaught Rangers. The Israeli memorial website has him lised as a member of the Jewish Battalion and is the only source that makes that connection.
I've tried reading on the topic but I can't find concrete answeres. Could you elaborate a bit on this? How did service in the EEF reflect on servicemen who were connected to different military unit, such as the Connaught Rangers? Was the fact you were assigned to the EEF have any connecion to being associated with the Jewish Battalion?

Thank you!

[Keith_history_buff]

Hope this makes for an interesting read, with regard to the composition of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_of_the_Egyptian_Expeditionary_Force

[Ben678]

1 minute ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Hope this makes for an interesting read, with regard to the composition of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_of_the_Egyptian_Expeditionary_Force

 

Thank you, I was looking at that a few hours ago. 

I can see that at one point the EEF was comprised of men from the Connaught Rangers and the Jewish Battalion, but was there any change in command? In the case I detailed above there seems to be a confusion in real official documents, so I have to wonder if these are clerical errors or did it have true bearing.

[headgardener]

Hi Ben - it's probably a good idea to provide a link to the other thread that you have on Ginsberg as I think it does address some of the issues that you're asking about here. 

 

EEF is just the title for all the various regiments and Corps of the British and Commonwealth forces serving in Egypt (including Palestine). That would include 1/Connaught Rangers (as discussed on the other thread).

 

Ginsberg must have served with the ASC in the UK, and was transferred to the Connaughts for service overseas. This is confirmed by his pension record, his medal index card, SDGW and by CWGC. There is no evidence to link him to the Judeans. The only link appears to have been made by the IDF but, for reasons set out in the other thread, this must be a mistake. 

[Ben678]

Thanks headgardener.

I have a feeling the association with EEF brought about the connection to the Jewish Battalion so I am raising here a slightly different aspect of that question: Were Jewish members of the EEF officially connected in any way to the Jewish Battalions? Generally speaking, regardless of Ginsberg's case, which is detailed here for everyon'e benefit: 

 

 

[michaeldr]

23 minutes ago, headgardener said:

Ginsberg must have served with the ASC in the UK, and was transferred to the Connaughts for service overseas. This is confirmed by his pension record, his medal index card, SDGW and by CWGC. There is no evidence to link him to the Judeans. The only link appears to have been made by the IDF but, for reasons set out in the other thread, this must be a mistake.

 

HG seems to have summed this up very well

 

I can only add in the very simplest of terms that 

43 minutes ago, Ben678 said:

Was the fact you were assigned to the EEF have any connecion to being associated with the Jewish Battalion?

No

14 minutes ago, Ben678 said:

Were Jewish members of the EEF officially connected in any way to the Jewish Battalions?

No

[headgardener]

The British records indicate that he only ever served overseas with the Connaughts. The IDF appear to be the only people linking him to the Judeans. At this point you need to ask them why they believe that to be the case. 

Edited 27 September , 2020 by headgardener

[michaeldr]

In September 1918 at the commencement of his final campaign the EEF led by General Allenby had a fighting strength of (in the General's words) “12,000 sabres, 57,000 rifles”. This fighting force was supplied and supported by many thousands more. The Jewish Battalions of the Royal Fusiliers made up a very small portion of the total numbers involved.

Were the members of the Jewish Battalions the only Jewish servicemen in this theatre – by no means. There must have been hundreds spread throughout the many different regiments represented.

 

6 minutes ago, headgardener said:

he British records indicate that he only ever served overseas with the Connaughts. The IDF appear to be the only people linking him to the Judeans. At this point you need to ask them why they believe that to be the case. 

 

This is a good idea of HG's

[Ben678]

2 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

In September 1918 at the commencement of his final campaign the EEF led by General Allenby had a fighting strength of (in the General's words) “12,000 sabres, 57,000 rifles”. This fighting force was supplied and supported by many thousands more. The Jewish Battalions of the Royal Fusiliers made up a very small portion of the total numbers involved.

Were the members of the Jewish Battalions the only Jewish servicemen in this theatre – by no means. There must have been hundreds spread throughout the many different regiments represented.

 

Thank you.

I agree with headgardener too, but as EEF is not too known I am still looking for answers before claiming an official record is incorrect, while I have no proof that it is incorrect. One line of thought was that EEF members were associated with the JB even if they didn't join them - it may be wrong, but I am still looking into it, not only with the expert members here but also with academic researchers. 

[michaeldr]

17 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

In September 1918 at the commencement of his final campaign the EEF led by General Allenby had a fighting strength of (in the General's words) “12,000 sabres, 57,000 rifles”. This fighting force was supplied and supported by many thousands more.............

There must have been hundreds spread throughout the many different regiments represented.

 

The figure which I was looking for earlier - the ration strength of the EEF at 19 September 1918 - was 467,650

[made up of British - 226,900, Indian - 111,800, & Egyptian - 128,950]

 

Edited 27 September , 2020 by michaeldr

[Keith_history_buff]

8 minutes ago, headgardener said:

The British records indicate that he only ever served overseas with the Connaughts. The IDF appear to be the only people linking him to the Judeans. At this point you need to ask them why they believe that to be the case. 

 

I hope the IDF don't have the same disregard for sources that I have seen exhibited by the we were there too (jewsfww.uk) project. If data is compiled, and a source-based approach is not followed, then the project becomes tarnished, and gets a reputation for being unreliable. The Jewish contribution to the Allied war effort did not begin and end with three infantry battalions, so I would be surprised why it is inferred that this soldier was with one of the battalions with "Jewish" in its name.

Ben, you need to get a better understanding of the organisation of the army, as it is preposterous to think that 'EEF members were associated with the JB even if they didn't join them'. It is like saying that anyone who went to Gallipoli in the MEF was therefore associated with the three battalions of Gurkhas.'

 

Were it the case that he had seen active service with one of the Jewish Legion battalions of the Royal Fusiliers, then his name would be on the Royal Fusiliers medal roll.

[Keith_history_buff]

17 minutes ago, Ben678 said:

Thank you.

I agree with headgardener too, but as EEF is not too known 

 

What do you mean by the latter part of this statement? I think there is enough material out there for the EEF to be both 'known' and well documented.

[headgardener]

Hi Ben - you say that "the EEF is not too known" - it's incredibly well known, what is it about the EEF that you are trying to understand? 

 

This seems to be the key issue for you:

20 minutes ago, Ben678 said:

I am still looking for answers before claiming an official record is incorrect, while I have no proof that it is incorrect. 

 

If the 'official record' that you're referring to is the IDF's 'roll of honour' (or whatever it is) then it has been proven beyond any doubt to be incorrect. The original 'official records' (the British army records) came into being over 30 years before the IDF was formed - they include Joseph Ginsberg's pension record, his medal index card, his medal roll, his entry in SDGW and his commemoration by the CWGC. All of them prove that Ginsberg served with the Connaughts while simultaneously disproving that he was ever a Judean. 

 

As discussed on the other thread, it seems highly likely that the IDF have confused J/4141 Joseph Ginsberg (a 'Judean' ) with Joseph Ginsberg of the Connaughts. Why put people through the time and trouble of trying to answer your questions when you could simply ask the IDF to confirm their sources? We have provided good evidence to show that their records are incorrect. 

[Ben678]

@Keith_history_buff There's no need to get excited.  That goes to both of your comments/questions in the 2 seperate posts.

I meant that in regards to the composition and structure.  I did not come to the GWF empty handed. I've done some research and in spite of it, I could not find an answer as to the inner workings of the EEF in regards to its members. Not EEF duties, operations or logistics. Simply: the servicemen - that is something that seems to be lacking research. 

Forming a local force that is comprised of representatives of so many multiple units must have had a system, or should have had a system.

I may be wrong, but one of the scenarios I've thought of - and tried to raise here - was that as a Jewish serviceman in the EEF they may have arranged for him to be affiliated with the Jewish Battalions for the duration of his EEF duty. Those Battalions may have had somewhat of an advantage over his original regiment under those specific terms of the EEF and in that geographical setting. It certainly must have had ethnic-religious advantages.

I find it plausible that such a "loan" could have been made. Again, I may be wrong. I'm not stating facts, I'm merely speculating and I was hoping to learn from the people here who are far more knowledgable than I. I've obviously failed in trying to create such a discussion and I apologize for wasting your time and energy. Please don't waste any more of it.

[headgardener]

Ben - did you read my last message? The official records created in 1918-20 disprove the IDF 'official record' created sometime after the creation of the state of Israel. There is good evidence to indicate that they have conflated the service details of 2 men with identical names. 

 

With regards to this:

 

12 minutes ago, Ben678 said:

@Keith_history_buff

 

I may be wrong, but one of the scenarios I've thought of - and tried to raise here - was that as a Jewish serviceman in the EEF they may have arranged for him to be affiliated with the Jewish Battalions for the duration of his EEF duty. Those Battalions may have had somewhat of an advantage over his original regiment under those specific terms of the EEF and in that geographical setting. It certainly must have had ethnic-religious advantages.

I find it plausible that such a "loan" could have been made. Again, I may be wrong. I'm not stating facts, I'm merely speculating and I was hoping to learn from the people here who are far more knowledgable than I. 

 

Why speculate at length about something that we already discussed and proven to you, when instead you could simply ask the IDF for details of the evidence that they used to create their 'roll of honour'? 

Edited 27 September , 2020 by headgardener

[Keith_history_buff]

5 minutes ago, Ben678 said:

@Keith_history_buff There's no need to get excited.  That goes to both of your comments/questions in the 2 seperate posts...

 

I could not find an answer as to the inner workings of the EEF in regards to its members. Not EEF duties, operations or logistics. Simply: the servicemen - that is something that seems to be lacking research. 

Forming a local force that is comprised of representatives of so many multiple units must have had a system, or should have had a system.

 

I may be wrong, but one of the scenarios I've thought of - and tried to raise here - was that as a Jewish serviceman in the EEF they may have arranged for him to be affiliated with the Jewish Battalions for the duration of his EEF duty. Those Battalions may have had somewhat of an advantage over his original regiment under those specific terms of the EEF and in that geographical setting. It certainly must have had ethnic-religious advantages.

 

I find it plausible that such a "loan" could have been made. Again, I may be wrong. I'm not stating facts, I'm merely speculating and I was hoping to learn from the people here who are far more knowledgable than I.

With regard to the second chunk of text above, I have not heard of anything like this in the British Army, or its deployments (EEF, MEF, BEF, BSA etc). It sounds like the soviets (workers' councils) that were set up in Russia after 1917, as part of the new philosophy that underpinned the revolution. It did not apply to the British, so is out of scope.

As for the third, this flies in the face of group cohesion and the esprit de corps of an existing body of men, as I see it. There is the separate question of whether soldiers of the Jewish faith were allowed to request a transfer to the Jewish Legion battalions of the Royal Fusiliers, and whether this was facilitated. However, as I saw it, the Jewish battalions were more of a means to recruit non-Britons, hence their establishment and training in Canada. Jews in the UK who had not volunteered prior to 1915 would have been conscripted.

I think this has run its course. It has been interesting to read the comments on the other thread, in respect of 6144 Private Joseph Ginsberg and his service in the British Army.

[Guest]

The two Joseph Ginsbergs (let alone the third on CWGC) can be differentiated.  The "other one"-J4141 cannot be the one in Haifa- where his units were does not overlap to create any amount of doubt.

    The chances of someone being  allowed to exchange locally  on account of religion seems most unlikely.  There is no evidence at all for the notion that he might have been attached to one of the Jewish battalions of the Royal Fusiliers. I will grant you that it is possible that he would likely have associated with men of the Royal Fusiliers at some time-perhaps attending prayers or services with the same Chaplain to the Forces

    You cannot talk up what is not there.

 

The only little enigma in this is whether  Joseph Ginsburg at Haifa was either recognized as Jewish or wished to be considered as Jewish. The Cairo Ginsberg was clearly Jewish, clearly in a Jewish unit and his grave-as with several others around him-was clearly marked as being Jewish from the start. Not so with the Haifa Ginsberg - his grave report  has no mention of being Jewish, nor-does it seem,  was he known to be Jewish when CWGC  drew up the permanent headstones at Haifa- he is listed as having a cross,which has been crossed through and annotated as Jewish, consequently with the Jewish marker on it. Thus,  his memorialisation as Jewish seems to have emerged when the cemetery was properly laid out. 

    What little evidence there is might just suggest that the man himself did not wish to be considered as Jewish:

1) Lack of Jewish grave marker when interred,

2)  The 4 Jewish battalions of the Royal Fusiliers were formed up at Plymouth in the second half of January 1918.   If there was a prospect that Haifa Ginsberg had wished to serve in a Jewish unit, then the optimum time for him to have gone was in December 1917 (and up to the departure of the Rangers  in mid-January 1918) when he seems to have been pulled from ASC.

3) Haifa Ginsberg is not listed  as a Leeds Jewish casualty on the memorial at Beit Himadrash  in Leeds. The memorial was put up in 1970  and there seems to have been some effort made to update the listing of Leeds Jewish killed in the Great War

   The problem is the same for all religions-just because someone is "born" into a faith-that of their parents- does not mean they would always wish to be considered a fully paid-up practising member 

 

       You may consider a communication with CWGC to ask when the Jewish grave marker was put on his grave.

Edited 27 September , 2020 by Guest

[headgardener]

@Ben678

Just to add to previous comments - I've read the history of the Judeans which goes into plenty of detail about how men were recruited, but there is no reference to any sort of arrangement to classify Jewish servicemen in the EEF as Judeans or for them to be somehow 'attached' to the Judeans, nor is there any mention of it in the official history of the EEF. 

 

You say that you were "hoping to learn“ something from us. Given that several of us have taken the time to discuss this with you on 2 separate threads, including some very lengthy responses to your questions from myself and Michael, it's simply rude to say that you've "obviously failed to create a discussion", and then disappear without bothering to even thank us for taking the time to answer the various questions that you put to us.

[michaeldr]

3 hours ago, Ben678 said:

I may be wrong, but one of the scenarios I've thought of - and tried to raise here - was that as a Jewish serviceman in the EEF they may have arranged for him to be affiliated with the Jewish Battalions for the duration of his EEF duty. Those Battalions may have had somewhat of an advantage over his original regiment under those specific terms of the EEF and in that geographical setting. It certainly must have had ethnic-religious advantages.

 

An army of nearly half a million men does not think like that at all. In fact at that level not only does the individual not come into it, but even the battalion is too small to warrant special consideration. Generally speaking the smallest unit that would be of interest to an army command, is a division.

 

A man's religion is noted when he enlists. Thereafter the army will do its best to ensure that he and his co-religionist have, from time to time, access to the appropriate chaplain, but apart from that it has no further interest in his private beliefs.

 

There was no movement or transfer of individuals from one battalion to another, simply based upon the individual soldier's religious beliefs or persuasion. This would be impractical. It would interfere with training and the cohesion of the unit as a fighting force, which latter was its absolute and sole priority.

 

If you read 'With the Judeans in the Palestine Campaign' by Lt Col J H Patterson, then you will realise that the formation of the Jewish battalions was achieved against the wishes of certain sections of Britain's Jewish community and further, that the battalions' service in this theatre was not always smoothly facilitated by the British powers-that-be.

 

There was therefore, never any question of the Jewish Battalions recruiting men from other, established regiments once they reached the theatre of war.

[Eran Tearosh]

Hi,

 

Sorry I'm joining only now. 

 

Ben, my guess is that if you refer to the IDF sources, you're probably writing from Israel. If so, you can call me after Yom Kippur and I'll help you gladly. 

 

To the point:

There were probably several hundred Jews serving in many different units. The only occasion I know about that was connecting the Jewish soldiers from many units was a Passover Seder, organized in Jerusalem a few months after the city was captured by the EEF. Jewish soldiers were granted a special leave for that event. There are records of some of those who attended that event (and there are photos). The first Jewish battalion to arrive here (38 RF) arrived later.

 

There were Jewish soldiers and officers in many British, Australian and New-Zealand units (Maybe also in South-African units - I'm checking that these days). Some were killed or died and are buried in Israel, Gaza and Egypt with a Star of David on their headstone. The 38 RF were recruited mostly in the UK, the 39 RF mostly from the US and the 40 RF were recruited mostly from the Land of Israel / Palestine from local settlers. Two more Jewish battalions were in the first stages of being put up, but the process stopped when the war ended. 

 

As far as I know (and I do know quite a lot about these issues), not even one Jewish soldier from other units joined the Jewish battalions. There is a unconfirmed statement of one scholar, who claimed that the Hon. Captain Neil Primrose MP, expressed his desire to join the battalions when they arrive. As I wrote - unconfirmed claim (I tried to verify that one...) however - this remarkable man was killed in action on November 15th, 1917, more than half a year before the 38 RF arrived on the scene. Interesting - Christian by father (Archibald Primrose, who served as prime Minister) and Jewish by mother (Hanna Rothschild). He is buried in Ramleh War Cemetery and there's a cross on his headstone. 

 

One more remark - I found over the years many mistakes in the records of CWGC, including a Jewish RF who is mentioned on the Jerusalem Memorial, but is also buried elsewhere....

 

Eran

 

Edited 27 September , 2020 by Eran Tearosh