EEF Jewish fallen remembered

[headgardener]

Thank you Michael and Eran for your very interesting comments. I recall seeing a photo relating to the Seder in Jerusalem.

 

I don't wish to be uncharitable to Ben, but his principal issue set out in a previous post in this thread is that the official IDF record regarding 6144 Joseph Ginsberg must be correct until it has been proven to be incorrect. That it demonstrably is incorrect was covered quite extensively in the other thread, hence his theory set out on this thread that all Jewish servicemen in the EEF must have somehow been attached to the Judeans. Belief can be impervious to proof, and it's worth remembering that Ben did suggest at the end of his last post that we shouldn't "waste [our] time and energy" providing any further proof that the IDF is wrong in identifying this man as a Judean. 

Edited 28 September , 2020 by headgardener

[headgardener]

Hi @Eran Tearosh - I don’t want to hijack Michael’s thread, but while we’re here I hoped I could add to something that you said regarding Primrose. (Michael - I’m happy to start a separate thread if you’d prefer, just say so and I’ll take the conversation elsewhere).

 

You mentioned the claim that Primrose wanted to join the 38th, and I understood you to say that it was an exception. My understanding was that some of the original contingent of the 38th were allowed to transfer from other units at the time the unit was formed. I did some research many years ago on one of the original officers and I’m pretty sure I picked up several names who did just that (not a lot, but enough to form a cadre of men with prior military experience - or at least that’s what I assumed). I can dig up my notes in case you’re interested?

[Gareth Davies]

This arrived yesterday. It’s a bit pricey but it is probably of interest to you all.

[headgardener]

30 minutes ago, Gareth Davies said:

This arrived yesterday. It’s a bit pricey but it is probably of interest to you all.

 

Hi Gareth - Is it indexed? If so, are there any useful refs to Capt. T. Coussin by any chance? 

 

From a uniform perspective, it's interesting to see that one of the men in the cover shot is wearing collar dogs. 

[Gareth Davies]

He isn't mentioned.

[headgardener]

7 minutes ago, Gareth Davies said:

He isn't mentioned.

 

Thanks for looking! 

[michaeldr]

3 hours ago, headgardener said:

You mentioned the claim that Primrose wanted to join the 38th, and I understood you to say that it was an exception. My understanding was that some of the original contingent of the 38th were allowed to transfer from other units at the time the unit was formed. I did some research many years ago on one of the original officers and I’m pretty sure I picked up several names who did just that (not a lot, but enough to form a cadre of men with prior military experience - or at least that’s what I assumed). I can dig up my notes in case you’re interested?

 

HG,

 

Lt-Col Patterson in his book records that a meeting took place at the War Office on 8^th August 1917. This was attended by about 20 members of the Jewish community, plus Col Sykes and Lt-Col Amery (both of the War Cabinet's office). The meeting was a ploy by Patterson to try to bring together those for and against the idea of Jewish battalions.

 

Amongst those attending was Neil Primrose, who managed to pass a note to Patterson;

“Can you dine with me this evening? I should like to join your new battalion.”

Patterson replied;

“So sorry, am engaged.”

Alas, Patterson never heard from Primrose again.

 

A little later Patterson mentions

“As a nucleus for the Jewish battalion I arranged for the transfer of a platoon of my old Zion Mule Corps men from the 20^th Battalion of the London Regiment, where they were then serving under the command of Colonel A Pownall. My best thanks are due to this officer for the help he gave in effecting the transfer of my old veterans.”

[michaeldr]

3 hours ago, Gareth Davies said:

It’s a bit pricey

I see what you mean - via Abe £108.55 + pp  (and a paper-back too)

Edited 29 September , 2020 by michaeldr

[headgardener]

6 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

A little later Patterson mentions

“As a nucleus for the Jewish battalion I arranged for the transfer of a platoon of my old Zion Mule Corps men from the 20^th Battalion of the London Regiment, where they were then serving under the command of Colonel A Pownall. My best thanks are due to this officer for the help he gave in effecting the transfer of my old veterans.”

 

Michael - many thanks for those interesting snippets. The men I found weren't Zion Mule Corps veterans or 20th London. Of the top of my head I think they were infantry regiments - KORL, L'pool, W Yorks, and maybe a couple of others. I should be able to find my notes if it's of interest. 

[michaeldr]

4 minutes ago, headgardener said:

I should be able to find my notes if it's of interest. 

 

HG

Message sent - many thanks

Michael

[Eran Tearosh]

Hi

 

Michael - Thanks for those quotes. Interesting timing (dating) there - you mentioned that the meeting at the War Office was on 8th August 1917. That's less then 10 days before Neil Primrose embarked for Egypt (17th August) and returned to his Yeomanry regiment (Bucks Hussars) on 7th September.  

 

Headgardener - Yes, I would love to go through those notes of yours! Indeed, in addition to the Zion Mule Corps veterans, staff was brought in to create a more experienced backbone (officers and NCO's) for this newly formed infantry battalion. As far as I know, most (maybe all) were non-Jewish. I don't have any evidence as to Jewish officers or NCO's from other units asking to be transferred to the Jewish Battalions. Doesn't sound like something one would dare to ask!

 

I'll send you my personal email address by PM.  

 

Thanks!

 

Eran

 

Edited 30 September , 2020 by Eran Tearosh

[michaeldr]

8 hours ago, Eran Tearosh said:

Interesting timing (dating) there - you mentioned that the meeting at the War Office was on 8th August 1917. That's less then 10 days before Neil Primrose embarked for Egypt (17th August) and returned to his Yeomanry regiment (Bucks Hussars) on 7th September.  

 

Eran - Thanks for checking that

[Ben678]

On 28/09/2020 at 11:49, headgardener said:

I don't wish to be uncharitable to Ben, but his principal issue set out in a previous post in this thread is that the official IDF record regarding 6144 Joseph Ginsberg must be correct until it has been proven to be incorrect.

 

Not only did I never suggest that, I am even very much aware of many dozens of mistakes in those records. Many many dozens.

 

On 29/09/2020 at 11:33, headgardener said:

My understanding was that some of the original contingent of the 38th were allowed to transfer from other units at the time the unit was formed. I did some research many years ago on one of the original officers and I’m pretty sure I picked up several names who did just that.

 

Interestingly enough, the comments of the past few days triggered by the very informative response made by Eran, brought about the exact discussion I initially intended for and was for some reason downplayed when I intially raised it. The responses given, eventually even by yourself - HG - in the above quote, suggest that it was indeed a valid issue that was at the very least talked about. Veteran Jewish soldiers who were already in service may have been considered for transfer to the newly formed battalions and who knows - maybe even succeded.

That was the very purpose of my query and I'm glad to see the discussion eventually got there.

Thank you to those who joined in.

Edited 3 October , 2020 by Ben678

[michaeldr]

The time frame and the location are different however.

While building a new battalion in the UK it was a relatively straightforward matter to move men around between units then in the UK.

Once that battalion had left the UK and had entered a theatre of war, there was no possibility of such cross-movement.

Ginsberg was already in the EEF as a member of the Connaught Rangers. He would not have had the opportunity, even supposing he wanted it, to transfer to the RF.

Edited 3 October , 2020 by michaeldr

[Guest]

Well,there is-possibly - a tedious way of doing it.  Statistically, there should be some of the surviving Arnside  OR service files  extant for men of 38 RF.  Thus, a grind to see from them whether any of these men transferred inwards from other units already in EEF and, of course, when.

[michaeldr]

My impression is that Ginsberg's record is known and that it agrees with the CWGC.

Edited 3 October , 2020 by michaeldr

[headgardener]

Shalom @Ben678 - what point exactly are you trying to make??

 

Michael's last response deals fully with the issue that you now seem to be pursuing - Jewish men serving with the EEF were not transferred to or affiated with the 38th RF, the evidence for which had already been explained to you. This is a completely separate issue to the establishment of the battalion in England in 1917. The original subject of your enquiry has also been addressed - at length. All available evidence (as set out in these 2 threads) demonstrates that 6144 Joseph Ginsberg was never a member of the 38th RF. And yet, for some reason you still don't appear to accept it (or do you?):

6 hours ago, Ben678 said:

Veteran Jewish soldiers who were already in service may have been considered for transfer to the newly formed battalions and who knows - maybe even succeded.

That was the very purpose of my query and I'm glad to see the discussion eventually got there.

 

Just to be clear, have you actually taken the very simple step of asking the IDF to explain why they believe that 6144 Ginsberg was a member of 38th RF? And what did they tell you? 

 

[headgardener]

2 hours ago, michaeldr said:

My impression is that Ginsberg's record is known and that it agrees with the CWGC.

Indeed. SDGW, CWGC, MIC, Pension records, British Jewry Book of Honour all confirm that he was Connaught Rangers and not 38th RF.

[Ben678]

Not everything in life is about "making a point".

I came here and raised a general topic, which you over and over again tried to make personal and forcing the Ginsberg case as the ultimate case study. He served as an example, perhaps a bad one.

Forget Ginsberg! This is not about Ginsberg!!!! My entering this EEF thread may have been triggered by his case, but I tried and tried to make it a general discussion on the very possibility that such cases were possible.

The fact that it was a plausible option for active servicemen suggests there may have been such cases, possibly on a limited time window of the formation of the Battalions and possibly wider. That was what I came into this thread to learn. I thank all those who shared their knowledge and I now have a better understanding of the issue.

 

Despite your suggestion that I have been unthankful, the Ginsberg thread is filled with personalized notes of thanks and appreciation on every single comment. It was a bit harder to do on this thread due to the the tone and manner of repeatedly downplaying the topic and dismissing it. I am once again glad to see that the eventual outcome was informative. Take care.

Edited 3 October , 2020 by Ben678

[michaeldr]

On 27/09/2020 at 14:21, Ben678 said:

@michaeldr & @Eran Tearosh - Were all Jewish members in the EEF affiliated in one way or another with Jewish Battalion?
I am looking into Private J. Ginsberg (service number 6144) - he was a veteran soldier in RASC and later assigned to the Connaught Rangers Regiment. When the Connaught regimnet was sent to Egypt, some records that concern him state he is EEF, but on his grave they used the emblem of the Connaught Rangers. The Israeli memorial website has him lised as a member of the Jewish Battalion and is the only source that makes that connection.
I've tried reading on the topic but I can't find concrete answeres. Could you elaborate a bit on this? How did service in the EEF reflect on servicemen who were connected to different military unit, such as the Connaught Rangers? Was the fact you were assigned to the EEF have any connecion to being associated with the Jewish Battalion?

Thank you!

 

I'm sorry that there has been a missunderstanding here, but on rereading your original enquiry it is quite easy to see how such an impression came about. 

It is good to know that you now feel that you have a better grip on this subject

and I hope that you will return here to let us know of the final outcome of your enquiries with the IDF.

It would be most helpful to all concerned if they were to correct their records regarding this man's service.

 

Hag Sameack

Michael

Edited 3 October , 2020 by michaeldr

[Eran Tearosh]

Ben

 

Looking deeper into this, there's no doubt that the Israeli MOD site (Yizcor) is mistaken on the issue of J. Ginsberg and mixing the two Ginsberg's - The one buried in Haifa and the one buried in Cairo (and his case - wrong battalion). I double checked with Beit-HaGdudim (The museum of WWI & WWII Jewish battalions) and I'm in the process of making it right on the MOD site.

 

This falls nicely into a greater task I took upon myself some time ago - to add to the MOD website all the other WWI Jewish fallen soldiers that are buried in the various CWGC sites in Israel, and did not belong to the Jewish battalions, 38th, 39th and 40th Royal Fusiliers. I'm also working on Jewish soldiers and labor who belonged to the Ottoman side, a very difficult task. This recognition means much more than 'just' being mentioned on the website...

 

Ben, I don't want to write simultaneously on two threads, so I'll ask here - Does the BJBoH include personal details about Joseph Ginsburg who's buried in Cairo (39 RF)? Where was he from, circumstances of death etc.?  

 

Eran

 

 

[michaeldr]

3 hours ago, Eran Tearosh said:

Does the BJBoH include personal details about Joseph Ginsburg who's buried in Cairo (39 RF)? Where was he from, circumstances of death etc.?  

 

Eran,

 

The book is here https://www.jewsfww.uk/roll-of-honour.php

but I have been unable to turn up anything on Ginsberg https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/112672/J GINSBERG/

 

regards

Michael

 

PS: possibility an American?

Edited 11 October , 2020 by michaeldr

[headgardener]

Hi Eran - further to Michael's post above, the BJBoH lists 4141 Ginsberg on the unit roll of 40th RF (CWGC states 39th), and he isn't included in the Book's Roll of Honour which supposedly lists Jewish casualties, nor is there a photo of him. In truth, the BJBoH doesn't claim to be authoritative, and many names and details of Jewish servicemen are missing (I also know of at least 1 non-Jew who is listed in it!) 

[michaeldr]

If he is on the roll but not in the book, then that tends to go with the theory that he was not British. As a general rule of thumb, the 38th were British, the 39th Americans & 40th the Palestinians. Like all generalisations though, there were exceptions.

see https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-legion

 

 

Edited 12 October , 2020 by michaeldr
correction

[Guest]

14 hours ago, michaeldr said:

If he is on the roll but not in the book, then that tends to go with the theory that he was not British. As a general rule of thumb, the 38th were British, the 39th Americans & 40th the Palestinians. Like all generalisations though, there were exceptions.

see https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-legion

 

 

 

      The standard online sources in the UK do not take it further forward very much:

 

Medal Roll for Royal Fusiliers records  this Joseph  Ginsberg  as:

 

 

      Thanks to Ancestry for this "fair use" clip

It might explain where BJBoH was coming from.

 

But Soldiers Effects does show there is a story to tell-as the cause of death is a little unusual:

 

 

His War Gratuity  of £5/10/- suggests a little over a year's service 

 

   There are too many Joseph Ginsberg candidates on the 1911 Census to work out which one he was (If,indeed he was in the UK at that time, which itself is a problem).   Both his Medal Index Card and  Soldiers Effects show that the army was unable to contact any family member-both medals and gratuity were unclaimed.