42nd Deolis Indian Army Regimental History?

[Dever Mayfly]

I am interested in discovering where and when the 42nd Deolis was founded and any battle honours it received in the First World War.  Does any member know about this regiment of the Indian Army?

[sotonmate]

There is an article here which gives some facts:

http://www.researchingww1.co.uk/42nd-deoli-regiment-1st-battalion

There was a second Battalion also, and the majority of both served in WW1 as security forces within India, with another source showing only a Company of the 1st (Meena) Battalion serving in a war zone (Mesopotamia) .

Edited 30 September , 2018 by sotonmate

[Dever Mayfly]

Very helpful - specially as they seem to be a regiment where Hindus and Muslims fought together.  My man was Captain HK Salveson who arrived in Omsk on a train with eight other British Army officers on 7th May 1919.  Can't seem to find anything about him after that....

[Gunga Din]

The War Diaries for the 1/42nd Deoli Regt for the period in question can be downloaded from the National Archives for a few pounds sterling. see here:

 

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_ep=Deoli&_cr=WO 95&_dss=range&_ro=any&_st=adv

 

He is mentioned in WO 5046 in North Persia in 1921 and is listed on at least two nominal rolls of Officers on 31/01/1921 and 28/02/1921 etc... Most Indian Army diaries of the period kept regular nominal rolls of Officers. He also appears in some nominal rolls in WO 95/5053.

 

The Deoli's diaries are very poor by the standards of the day. The narratives are very thin and often the diaries are simply a list of locations and nominal rolls. The 42nd Deolis started the war with both Cavalry and Infantry units, rather like the Guides. 

 

While the history of the regiment is elusive, the 1/42nd Deolis are mentioned occasionally in neighbouring unit diaries and published histories. The 39th Garhwal Rifles mentions mobilising (for the second time during the war) with the 1/42nd Deolis for example. For their time in North Persia I would recommend reading the diary of the 1/2nd Goorkha Rifles (Sirmoor Rifles) (part of the same diary bundle with the 1/42nd Deoli Regt) as well as its published history. The 2nd Goorkha's records are exceptional and their published history is probably one of the most detailed Indian Army unit histories . The Deolis will be mentioned in other unit's published histories. You might also try and locate the Official History that covers the period in question (if it exists) as it should have the ORBAT which will help signpost other units and possible leads to reconstruct the Deoli's history. 

 

Gunga Din.

[helpjpl]

Harold Keith Salvesen:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Salvesen

 

JP

[Steven Broomfield]

The 1919 Indian Army List has them as composed of 4 companies of Rajput Hindus and Mussulmans (Muslims). Salvesen is Lieutenant, Acting Captain, Adjutant. First commission is 12th May, 15, current rank 12th May, 16 and present appointment in regiment 1st November, 15.

 

Perkins, in his excellent and comprehensive guide to published histories of Empire & Commonwealth regiments, gives nothing for the 42nd; as the regiment was disbanded in the 1920/21 reforms I guess that's not a surprise.

 

Chris Kempston, in Duty & Fidelity (a pretty thorough guide to Indian units and formations in the GW) states that between February 17 and March 18 they were in Mespot, on the Euphrates Front, but in March 18 they joined the 56th Brigade, 14th Division until October 19, when they joined the 36th Brigade. Disbanded 25th October, 21

 

The 56th Brigade seems to have been a formalisation of the various units in the area of Nasiriya and replaced the 36th Brigade in 14th Division in August. From October 18 they were involved in railway construction work,

 

It seems that, at the time the 1st/42nd were with the 56th Brigade it was involved in punitive action against local tribes, but nothing involving 'proper' action.

 

Salvesen was qualified at the School of Musketry and at the School of Signalling, and was Lower Standard Hindustani and Baluchi.

 

 

[Gunga Din]

In WO 95/5181 he is mentioned in the nominal roll of Officers for end Oct, Nov and Dec 1918...... and on 3rd Jan 1919 the diary records his departure for Knox's Mission. This was one of the Allied Mission's to, Russia under Alfred Knox

 

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123196620 shows his Acting Captaincy in the Jun 1919 Army List whilst specially employed

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205309066

 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MOy_CQAAQBAJ&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=Alfred+Knox+siberia+1918&source=bl&ots=H-2YP4E5Lz&sig=alFX1_wFmqe4uKQQ6O2Rg50qLF8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwir9PruweXdAhUJBsAKHUxDCD44ChDoATAEegQIBBAB#v=onepage&q=Alfred Knox siberia 1918&f=false

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=allied+intervention+in+russia

[Dever Mayfly]

I don't understand why, if he was a prize cadet at RMAS and from a wealthy family, he would join the 42nd Deolis in the Indian Army?

 

He seems to be a dead ringer for the Royal Scots, or the Greys, but perhaps he was too academic and independently minded.   

 

Anyway he was on a famous train journey in Siberia in May 1919 with two future generals (Horrocks and Hayes) and 6 other British Army captains - will start a new thread for the other missing men.  Thank you everyone for all help.

[Matthew B.]

On ‎01‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 20:18, Dever Mayfly said:

I don't understand why, if he was a prize cadet at RMAS and from a wealthy family, he would join the 42nd Deolis in the Indian Army?

 

He seems to be a dead ringer for the Royal Scots, or the Greys, but perhaps he was too academic and independently minded.   

 

Anyway he was on a famous train journey in Siberia in May 1919 with two future generals (Horrocks and Hayes) and 6 other British Army captains - will start a new thread for the other missing men.  Thank you everyone for all help.

 

Hi,

 

Can I make a couple of observations on this post, if I may?

 

1) In his day, Sandhurst was titled the Royal Military College, Sandhurst (not RMAS)  - Woolwich (which did not close until 1939) where, in his days as a cadet, Engineer and Artillery officers were trained was officially termed the Royal Military Academy, Woolwich. Small but important point I feel.

 

2) As to why he would join the Indian Army, I think you miss a point. In the time period we are talking about, the British Indian Army only took in the best of the Sandhurst cadets, typically only those who completed the course in the top 40 or so places, and not all of them.  A few years before, in 1908, a certain cadet B. L. Montgomery failed to make the cut for those wishing to join the Indian Army - a point, I am told, which rankled with him for a long time. You had to be a good all-rounder to get in and they were put in positions of responsibility much quicker then their British Army counterparts.

 

Regards,

 

Matthew.

 

 

[Kat Turner]

Harold Keith Salvesen was my father (he died in 1972). I have recently found a diary of his for the year 1919 when he was in Siberia with General Knox’ Mission. I am anxious to find out about his experiences with the 42nd Deoli regiment. I know that he was involved in India, Mesopotamia and Persia until 1919 and returned to the regiment in India after his secondment to Siberia.  I would very grateful for any information you can give me. 

[FROGSMILE]

15 hours ago, Kat Turner said:

Harold Keith Salvesen was my father (he died in 1972). I have recently found a diary of his for the year 1919 when he was in Siberia with General Knox’ Mission. I am anxious to find out about his experiences with the 42nd Deoli regiment. I know that he was involved in India, Mesopotamia and Persia until 1919 and returned to the regiment in India after his secondment to Siberia.  I would very grateful for any information you can give me. 

You can learn something about the General Knox mission from the autobiography of Lt Gen Sir Brian Horrocks - A Full Life: https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=30370422167&cm_mmc=ggl-_-UK_Shopp_RareStandard-_-product_id=bi%3A 30370422167-_-keyword=&gclid=Cj0KCQiA4feBBhC9ARIsABp_nbUjkYGAyBedT-KnpUVb8ESv0Lq7Nz1Cg8xKnRl6ezrfXtuTSE7jxT4aAte7EALw_wcB

 

The 42nd Deoli Regiment seems quite an obscure unit, I wonder if @Maureenemight have something on them.  I’m sure that she will happen along and make a comment.

Edited 2 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[MaureenE]

Sorry I can't add anything specifically on the 42nd Deoli Regiment 

 

For Mesopotamia generally, see the FIBIS Fibiwik page Mesopotamia Campaign

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Mesopotamia_Campaign

 

 For Persia, see the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Norperforce

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Norperforce

 

Gunga Din above (who I suspect was the late Martin Gillott, although I don't understand the significance of the classification Spammer) mentions the history  of the 2nd Goorkha Rifles (Sirmoor Rifles) . This is History of the 2nd King Edward's Own Goorkha Rifles (The Sirmoor Rifles) by Colonel L W Shakespear

Available online Volume II 1911-1921, published 1924. HathiTrust Digital Library

 

 There is a previous GWF thread "General Knox's mission to Russia"

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/202820-general-knoxs-mission-to-russia/

 

 

There is also a thread about the book by Forum member Damien Wright  "Churchill's Secret War WIth Lenin: British and Commonwealth Military Intervention in the Russian Civil War, 1918-20"

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/251047-churchills-secret-war-with-lenin-british-and-commonwealth-military-intervention-in-the-russian-civil-war-1918-20/?tab=comments#comment-2534795

This book has a chapter on Siberia Apri 1918 to February 1920

 

Kat, perhaps you will be transcribing your father's diary

See my previous GWF topic  Upload  your transcriptions to Archive.org (Internet Archive)

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/230450-upload-your-transcriptions-to-archiveorg-internet-archive/?tab=comments#comment-2635488

 

Maureen

 

[Kat Turner]

Thank you for the advice as to where to find information about General Knox’ Mission in Siberia and about the 42nd Deoli Regiment in Mesopotamia. 
Yes. I am transcribing my father’s diary. I think the most interesting part will be a fairly full description of the attack on the train travelling from Vladivostok to Yekaterinburg in the first week of May 1919. 
I am very intrigued to know why Denver Mayfly has been researching my father and refers to him as “my man”. 

PS. There was a typo in my first post. My father died in 1970 not 1972. 

[FROGSMILE]

30 minutes ago, Kat Turner said:

Thank you for the advice as to where to find information about General Knox’ Mission in Siberia and about the 42nd Deoli Regiment in Mesopotamia. 
Yes. I am transcribing my father’s diary. I think the most interesting part will be a fairly full description of the attack on the train travelling from Vladivostok to Yekaterinburg in the first week of May 1919. 
I am very intrigued to know why Denver Mayfly has been researching my father and refers to him as “my man”. 

PS. There was a typo in my first post. My father died in 1970 not 1972. 

Kat it’s a pure guess, but I suspect that Denver Mayfly might have your father’s medals unless your family are still in possession of them? 

Edited 2 March , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Dever Mayfly]

On 02/03/2021 at 18:40, Kat Turner said:

Thank you for the advice as to where to find information about General Knox’ Mission in Siberia and about the 42nd Deoli Regiment in Mesopotamia. 
Yes. I am transcribing my father’s diary. I think the most interesting part will be a fairly full description of the attack on the train travelling from Vladivostok to Yekaterinburg in the first week of May 1919. 
I am very intrigued to know why Denver Mayfly has been researching my father and refers to him as “my man”. 

PS. There was a typo in my first post. My father died in 1970 not 1972. 

Thank you for your interest in this post and please accept my apologies for not replying sooner, but I have been working on another book and it has taken me away from this site for a few months.

Your father was indeed on the same train as Brian Horrocks in May 1919 and arrived in Omsk on 17th May.  Horrocks is one of the principle characters in my book, Churchill's Abandoned Prisoners, and I was tracing some of the other officers with him on his adventures.  His story about the stopover seems to epitomise so much about the British Army at the time and I would be very interested in your father's perspective on the incident.   There were some real characters on that train, including another prisoner who became a General, Eric Hayes, as well as Captain Norman Stilling (the last British officer with Admiral kolchak before he was executed) and Captain Denis Kilpin a South African (Cape Peninsular Rifles) who joined the Machine Gun Corps and worked in the Tomsk Training Team. The full list is included as an endnote in my book. I was perticularly interested in where the Indian Army officers came from and where they went after the Siberian Mission closed.  I was also interested to find out about those who ended up in the Western Desert Campaign of 1940-1943 and whether any maintained friendships over the years. When did your father depart from Siberia?

[Kat Turner]

I hope that the following gives you the information you want.  I have your book and am reading it with great interest.

My father (born 1897) served with the 42nd Deoli Indian Regiment and was with them in Mesopotamia during 1917 and 1918.

On 1st January 1919 he was advised that he was to be seconded as an instructor for General Knox’ Mission in Siberia.

He left Baghdad on 4th January 1919 and arrived in Vladivostok on 16th April, having travelled via Bombay, Colombo, Singapore, Hong Kong and Shanghai.

He departed by train from Vladivostok for Omsk on 21 April 1919 arriving 17th May having witnessed the incident of 8th May described by Brian Horrocks in his book A Full Life when the Red Army attacked the station and the train at Tyshet. My father's description of that event which he witnessed but did not take part in is very similar to Brian Horrocks'.

He departed Omsk for Ekaterinburg on 21st May, arriving on 25th May. He volunteered to serve with the Anglo-Russian Brigade in the hope of seeing some active service against the Red Army and meanwhile instructed the White Russian officers until 4th July 1919 when preliminary orders were given to retreat to Omsk.

He departed Ekaterinburg for Omsk on 8th July 1919, arriving on 11th July. On 10th August he was ordered to return to Vladivostok with the Hampshire Regiment.

He departed Omsk on 16th August for Vladivostok, arriving on 30th August.

While in Vladivostok he undertook various jobs and had leave in Shanghai and Peking.

On 12th December 1919 he was ordered to leave from Vladivostok for India at the first opportunity.

On 27th December he departed Vladivostok. 

During 1920 he travelled back to Mesopotamia and, I believe, had 7 months leave in UK.

From January – May 1921 he served in Persia with Norperforce, returning to Baghdad with the regiment, arriving on 28th April 1921.

He was given leave in 1921 to go to Oxford to undertake  a 2 year degree under the Churchill Plan. He graduated with a first class degree and left the army in 1923.  He taught as a don in PPE until in 1928 he joined the family firm Chr. Salvesen and Co Leith. 

During WW2 he served with the Home Guard in Edinburgh.

 

 

 

  

[FROGSMILE]

There is a little WW1 information regarding the 42nd Deoli Regiment here: https://www.researchingww1.co.uk/42nd-deoli-regiment-1st-battalion

Edited 4 August , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Kat Turner]

Thank you.  I have downloaded all the diaries mentioned.  They were extremely useful in helping me establish where my father was in Mesopotamia and Persia  from 1916-1918 and in 1921  and what the regiment was engaged in at the time.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Kat Turner said:

Thank you.  I have downloaded all the diaries mentioned.  They were extremely useful in helping me establish where my father was in Mesopotamia and Persia  from 1916-1918 and in 1921  and what the regiment was engaged in at the time.

I’m glad that it was useful.

[Dever Mayfly]

On 04/08/2021 at 11:36, Kat Turner said:

 

I hope that the following gives you the information you want.  I have your book and am reading it with great interest.

My father (born 1897) served with the 42nd Deoli Indian Regiment and was with them in Mesopotamia during 1917 and 1918.

On 1st January 1919 he was advised that he was to be seconded as an instructor for General Knox’ Mission in Siberia.

He left Baghdad on 4th January 1919 and arrived in Vladivostok on 16th April, having travelled via Bombay, Colombo, Singapore, Hong Kong and Shanghai.

He departed by train from Vladivostok for Omsk on 21 April 1919 arriving 17th May having witnessed the incident of 8th May described by Brian Horrocks in his book A Full Life when the Red Army attacked the station and the train at Tyshet. My father's description of that event which he witnessed but did not take part in is very similar to Brian Horrocks'.

He departed Omsk for Ekaterinburg on 21st May, arriving on 25th May. He volunteered to serve with the Anglo-Russian Brigade in the hope of seeing some active service against the Red Army and meanwhile instructed the White Russian officers until 4th July 1919 when preliminary orders were given to retreat to Omsk.

He departed Ekaterinburg for Omsk on 8th July 1919, arriving on 11th July. On 10th August he was ordered to return to Vladivostok with the Hampshire Regiment.

He departed Omsk on 16th August for Vladivostok, arriving on 30th August.

While in Vladivostok he undertook various jobs and had leave in Shanghai and Peking.

On 12th December 1919 he was ordered to leave from Vladivostok for India at the first opportunity.

On 27th December he departed Vladivostok. 

During 1920 he travelled back to Mesopotamia and, I believe, had 7 months leave in UK.

From January – May 1921 he served in Persia with Norperforce, returning to Baghdad with the regiment, arriving on 28th April 1921.

He was given leave in 1921 to go to Oxford to undertake  a 2 year degree under the Churchill Plan. He graduated with a first class degree and left the army in 1923.  He taught as a don in PPE until in 1928 he joined the family firm Chr. Salvesen and Co Leith. 

During WW2 he served with the Home Guard in Edinburgh.

 

 

Thank you so much for this fascinating information. Your father was certainly in the thick of it and must have shared the frustrations of so many who were in Ekaterinburg in May 1919. It is very interesting that he also witnessed the November Gajda coup in Vladivostok and I wonder what he felt about that? (Very happy to take this offline if you wish - my email is (email removed)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Michelle Young]

Email address removed. Please use private messages. Never a good idea to post information like email addresses on a public website.

[Dever Mayfly]

3 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

Email address removed. Please use private messages. Never a good idea to post information like email addresses on a public website.

Thanks

[Kat Turner]

Denver Mayfly

i will write to you c/o your publishers in Oxford giving you my contact details and asking them to forward the letter to you.

[Michelle Young]

Easier way is to click on his name, then click on the envelope icon then type a message.