General Knox's mission to Russia

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

I have a AIF soldier (Capt John Murdoch O'Brien) who was attached to General Knox's British Mission to Russia.

He mentions traveling from Dunsterforce in Perisa via Hong Kong on a mission to Vladivostock Russia.

I knew that US Troops landed there but was unaware of the British part of this mission, can you blokes shead any light here?

Cheers

S.B

[sotonmate]

1/9 Hampshires landed in Vladivostock in Nov 1918 and fought to Nov 1919.

Files at Kew under WO158/737 to 742 covering General KNOXs correspondence 1918-19.

[generalist]

This is covered in part by John Ward's /With the Die-Hards in Siberia/ (available as a free book from Amazon, IIRC), dealing with a Middlesex service battalion. I believe the two mostly operated independently.

Very interesting read; Ward was a trade unionist & anti-socialist Liberal MP, and there's a lot if political commentary in there.

A.

[Greg Bloomfield]

What was the extent of the US involvement in Russia? I was unaware they took part although admitedly I am no expert on the matter.

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

I am sure others have more knowage but basicly a US force under General Graves with the the 27th and 30th Infantry Regts (3000 men) of the Philipines and with medical Sigs and other troops from the Califoria based 8th Div around (5000 men) landed at Vladivostock in Aug 1918.

It joined other troops from Britian and France (also possibly Japanese) of the SEF (Siberian Exp Force).

The force I believe left Russia around April 1920 after the Red Army got the upper hand.

My acounts I have don't mention General Knox's British Mission so any help here would clear up what JMO was doing in Russia.

Cheers

S.B

[Strawb67]

I have just started a book that I picked up at a second hand book shop called ANZACS at Arkhangel 1918-1919 ( I think it is the correct title) it is about the Australian involvement into the International force that went into Russia to try and put down the Bolsheviks. I have only just started it so not sure if it pertains to the info you are after. I think it was released in 2010 so it is fairly recent.

I will post the correct title if I have it wrong along with the author this evening when I am at home!

Cheers

John

[Dolphin]

Steve

In essence, there were three or four (depending on how you count them) Allied intervention forces in the Russian Civil War:

In North Russia, the British and Americans, plus some French and (I think) Serbs assisted various White Russian efforts to defeat the Bolsheviks - these efforts were centred on Arkhangel and, to a lesser degree, Murmansk. The troops were originally sent in mid 1918 to stop stores delivered to the Imperial Government from falling into German hands and, after the Armistice, then to the Bolsheviks. The mission steadily expanded to providing direct military assistance to the doomed White regime. In July 1919 it was decided to withdraw the British forces and an extra volunteer formation of Army and RAF, the North Russia Relief Force, was raised to cover the withdrawal. This is covered in Anzacs at Arkhangel.

In South Russia the French assisted the Whites in the Ukraine, while the British sent training missions, including Nos 47 and 221 Sqns RAF, plus tanks and artillery to train General Denekin's White forces. The Whites did fairly well for a while, even capturing Tsaritsyn (now Volgograd) before losing momentum and being defeated by Budenny's Red forces. A sub-front of this was Dunsterforce's action near Baku.

In Siberia the Allies (Americans, Japanese and British) went to safeguard the end of the Trans-Siberian Railway, partially to allow the Czech Legion to leave Russia and fight on the Western Front. Unlike the two fronts in western Russia, the Allies were not supposed to engage in combat with the Reds.

At the same time, there was a Royal Navy presence in the Baltic, assisting the new nations of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania resist Bolshevik efforts to pull them back under Russian control.

See Churchill's Crusade by Clifford Kenvig and The Day We Almost Bombed Moscow by Christopher Dobson and John Miller - they're good for starters, but there's lots more.

I hope this is useful.

Cheers

Gareth

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

Thanks for the ideas.

Yes I was aware of the other Allied landings in Russia (including the aussie effort in North Russia i have a number of aussies who joined the British Army under General Ironsides to go there) , but didn't know about any British effort in Sibiera. So General Knox's mission threw me, as I only believed US Troops went there.

Nice to see others were involved so more reseach into this thearte looks to be the case..

Thanks again for the pointers.

S.B

[generalist]

Some more details:

The British force in Siberia was made up of the 25th Middlesex (a reserve/garrison unit formed from the depots of the three Public Works Pioneers service battalions, sent to garrison Hong Kong & Singapore in 1916/17), which arrived at Vladivostok on 3/8/18, and the 1/9th Hampshire (formerly a TF cyclist unit, converted to infantry for service in East Africa, then sent to India in 1916), which arrived in Vladivostok on 28/11/18. Both were withdrawn in late 1919.

The 25th Middlesex is covered in With the Die-Hards in Siberia: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/10972/10972-h/10972-h.htm ; the Hampshires are apparently covered in the official regimental history and in Some Account of the 8th and 10th Battalions of the Hampshire Regiment 1914-1918 (1930) - the title confused me too!

Major-General Alfred Knox was an Indian Army officer who was aide-de-camp to Curzon when the Viceroy of India. He later was on the General Staff before being sent to St. Petersburg as the military attaché in 1911, and after the outbreak of the war was a liaison officer. After the Revolution he seems to have remained as a liaison to the White Russians; he was a friend of Admiral Kolchak, who was a regional commander and later "supreme ruler" in Siberia.

I'm not clear on whether the two battalions were actually under Knox's command, or sent to support Kolchak's forces which which he was associated, or indeed whether this was a meaningful distinction!

After the war, Knox became a Conservative MP; oddly, his elder brother Vesey Knox (d. 1921) had been an Irish Nationalist MP. His younger brother Harry Knox was also an army officer; he commanded 29th Division from August 1918, and ended up a full general, Adjutant-General to the Forces and Colonel of the Northamptonshire Regiment.

Andrew.

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Thanks for the details,

I now adds some more questions was my man attached to Knox's HQ or was he with the British forces in Siberia, concidering he traveled via Hong Kong purhaps he was attached to the 25Bn Middlesex Regt?

I didn't think this was so confused.

S.B

[bushfighter]

Please don't forget the Indian Army intrusion into Transcaspia (The Malleson Mission) from north-east Persia.

The main enemy troops were Austro-Hungarian prisoners captured at places such as Przemysl who were freed by the Bolsheviks and told to fight their way back to Europe.

Harry

[Doctord84]

For military details 'The Russian Civil War' by Evan Mawdsley (1987) is very good and 'Red Victory' by W. Bruce Lincoln (1999) is also worth a look. For a broader political/social study, try 'Russia under the Bolshevik regime 1919-1924' by Richard Pipes. As said above, the Americans were under orders not to get involved in combat and they basically guarded the Trans Siberian railway and other key points, A very complex situation, with large numbers of Japanese troops also in the area - with an openly expansionist agenda - a weak and corrupt Siberian government and some independent operators out in the Siberian wilds who fought everybody and committed some pretty horrible atrocities.

[sotonmate]

Steve

The gist of the two files I read yesterday seem to centre around who was with who,where the power lay (apart from the obvious fact that the Russians called the shots) and who was allocated to what ! Take the Russians,Japanese,French,Brits and USA and imagine what they wanted to achieve,if you get it right you could win that last, and long lost, Faberge egg !

The Brit function seems to have been in procurement of hardware from outside of Russia and a training programme for Russian soldiers,oh, and a lot of travelling on the Trans-Siberia railway. Troops made sure the railway stayed safe (-ish).

Now here's an offer you might want to refuse,I digipic'd two of the files,there are some loose organisational trees in among them too,so if you want to get a real insight then let me have your e-mail by PM here.

WO 158/737,the first file set up after the arrival of the Brits (Knox didn't seem to appear immediately) has 17 pages of English.

WO 158/738 has 32 pages of English( they were getting in the swing by File 2) .

I have refrained from copying the many pages of French and Russian ( no Japanese though ), they had an equal amount of text and no evident translation !