P.1907 Bayonet with Unit Marking "SCO R"

[ghch1555]

Hi 

 

I'm looking for some help to identify the pommel markings on a  P.1907 bayonet  that was manufactured in 1915 by Wilkinson (at the Enfield factory).  Also some assistance identifying the scabbard manufacturer and model.

 

The markings on the bayonet pommel are "SCO R" with the number "637' underneath - image attached.  My guess is that this was a bayonet that was issued to the Scottish Rifles (aka Cameronians).

 

As yet I have been unable to locate a unit list that includes the abbreviation "SCO R".

 

I assume the number 637 is a weapon number or a weapons rack number.  Hopefully someone can confirm both the "SCO R "and the "637" for me?

 

The scabbard has the letters "W.J.M" in a diamond on the inner side of the locket - I'd also be interested to learn what the WJM means (have had no definitive luck on that so far).  I'm pretty certain that this scabbard is not original to this bayonet - again comments on that welcomed.  There are no markings on the mouthpiece of the scabbard - and only a barely discernible broad arrow and what looks like a "16" on the leather.

 

I've attached a summary in pdf that I have put together so far of my research of this particular bayonet and scabbard. 

 

The bayonet is now in Victoria, Australia - I guess its reissue in 1923 may have something to do with that.  Ideas as to how/why it ended up in Australia welcomed also.

 

Thanks 

 

Stephen

Details_1915 Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet.pdf

[MikeyH]

The identity of the scabbard component maker 'W.J.M.' in a diamond, or sometimes just 'W.J.' has been discussed before on the forum.

They still remain 'unknown', but are thought to be of WW1 period.  Could be William J. Mills per your suggestion, where were they based?

Scottish Rifles is normally abbreviated as SCO RIF.

 

Mike.

 

 

[msdt]

Hi Stephen,

 

I am pretty sure that Scottish Rifles is correct. The pre WW1 mark is listed as S.R., but it looks as if SCO R is marked according to the 1932 Instructions to Armourers which gave different abbreviations for some regiments. The clearance hole in the pommel would not have been there when it was made in 1915, maybe put in in 1923 but could be earlier. The green paint indicates WW2 use, so I would say you have a bayonet that served with the Scottish Rifles before and during WW2 (and who knows re WW1).

 

You are correct about the weapon/rack number.

 

The bayonet would not have been manufactured at Enfield but at Wilkinson's London factories. The inspectors were from Enfield.

 

Is William J Mills the American company?

 

Cheers,

 

Tony 

 

[Dave66]

7 hours ago, MikeyH said:

The identity of the scabbard component maker 'W.J.M.' in a diamond, or sometimes just 'W.J.' has been discussed before on the forum.

They still remain 'unknown', but are thought to be of WW1 period.  Could be William J. Mills per your suggestion, where were they based?

Scottish Rifles is normally abbreviated as SCO RIF.

 

Mike.

 

 

I was only looking at that thread the other day, but here it is...https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/207428-p1907-scabbards/?page=2

 

1 hour ago, msdt said:

Hi Stephen,

 

I am pretty sure that Scottish Rifles is correct. The pre WW1 mark is listed as S.R., but it looks as if SCO R is marked according to the 1932 Instructions to Armourers which gave different abbreviations for some regiments. The clearance hole in the pommel would not have been there when it was made in 1915, maybe put in in 1923 but could be earlier. The green paint indicates WW2 use, so I would say you have a bayonet that served with the Scottish Rifles before and during WW2 (and who knows re WW1).

 

You are correct about the weapon/rack number.

 

The bayonet would not have been manufactured at Enfield but at Wilkinson's London factories. The inspectors were from Enfield.

 

Is William J Mills the American company?

 

Cheers,

 

Tony 

 

Tony,

With regards the 1932 instructions for armourers, is there an online pdf available?, quite a few variations in the 30's stampings so would be nice to compare with the earlier versions.

 

Dave.

Edited 5 September , 2018 by Dave66

[ghch1555]

Thankyou Tony and Mike

 

I had not considered that the SCO R 637 may have been added later - but it seems to make sense that it could/would have been added when this item was reissued in 1923 (as it is not consistent with a standard marking for the same unit in WWI. 

 

I did also notice a small amount of green paint but thought noting of it at the time - so again that fits with a reissue in 1923 and then potential service in WWII.

 

The William J Mills I had seen elsewhere eon the GWF so that is where I got my initial thoughts on that.  However I have had no success at all in finding any more information in regard to that.

 

It seems I have an interesting item that potentially saw service in both WWI and WWII - and then somehow ended up in Australia.  

[msdt]

Hi Dave,

 

I also was looking for a source for the 1932 instructions for a long time, then one day realised that I had them in a pamphlet I had owned for a good while:

 

 "The Identification of Buttstock Marking Discs in British Service 1900 - 1944", Compiled by Capt. Peter Laidler

 

I am afraid I cannot see this for sale anywhere at present.

 

Basically a lot of 1907 regimental markings are post WW1, and thus conform to the 1932 instructions. If I see a 1917 or 1918 dated bayonet I would assume that any marking is post WW1. Of course Stephen's is 1915 dated, which from observation also seems to be the last year that markings were commonly applied following the pre WW1 instructions.

 

Cheers,

 

Tony

[Dave66]

50 minutes ago, msdt said:

Hi Dave,

 

I also was looking for a source for the 1932 instructions for a long time, then one day realised that I had them in a pamphlet I had owned for a good while:

 

 "The Identification of Buttstock Marking Discs in British Service 1900 - 1944", Compiled by Capt. Peter Laidler

 

I am afraid I cannot see this for sale anywhere at present.

 

Basically a lot of 1907 regimental markings are post WW1, and thus conform to the 1932 instructions. If I see a 1917 or 1918 dated bayonet I would assume that any marking is post WW1. Of course Stephen's is 1915 dated, which from observation also seems to be the last year that markings were commonly applied following the pre WW1 instructions.

 

Cheers,

 

Tony

Thanks for that Tony,

I'll keep my eyes peeled now I know of a decent source.

 

Dave.

[ghch1555]

Ok, thanks to Dave and Tony for the additional comments.

 

I had a much closer look at the SCO R 637 pommel marking last night.  It appears the area it has been stamped on has been ground back a little, as if to remove a previous marking.  There are remnants of something under the S, O and 6 - but no hope of telling what they were.

 

If I'm interpreting the feedback correctly on this forum thread, then "SCO R" abbreviation was NOT used until 1932 onwards - correct? 

 

Therefore, I can conclude:

• The bayonet was manufactured in 1915 and likely saw service in WWI (with a unit whose unit mark has since been removed)
• The bayonet was refurbished in 1923 - and at that time (or in theory any time from 1916 onwards) had the clearance hole added.
• The bayonet was issued to a unit "SCO R" - presumably Scottish Rifles aka Cameronians some time after 1932 (as that unit code was not used before then) 
• The "637" is a weapon number or weapon rack number - more likely the second as it is only three digits
• The bayonet had green paint applied at some point for potential WWII service (most of which has now come off)  

Appreciate everyone's feedback so far. 

 

Stephen

 

[msdt]

Hi Stephen,

 

I should have commented on the removed marking as I did spot that. Yes, it may be a WW1 mark from 1915 (the armourers had better things to do after then, and maybe there was an intelligence component in case weapons were captured), which could have been removed in the 1923 re-issue, but there again maybe the original mark was also post 1923 (unless it can be seen to extend to where the clearance hole now is).

 

I wouldn't say 1932 was an exact date, that was the date the latest instructions for armourers booklet was published. It could be a little prior to that they were circulated in some way. 

 

The green paint is very much part of the bayonets history showing the WW2 service (it was for anti-corrosion purposes I believe), some collectors mistakenly remove it.

 

Fundamentally you have a nice bayonet that was in service through the 2 world wars.

 

Cheers,

 

Tony

[trajan]

 

Ah, working backwarsd, as is my wont after a long absence, I answered the parallel thread on this...at https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/262673-unit-markings-on-p1907-bayonets/

 

So, SCO from post WW1 - 1932 - Instructions which, of course, I don't have! But very useful to know these exist, so many thanks Tony MSTD! Would you please have a peep inside to see if they list any 'R.A.F.' markings for the eponymous unit, which they probably won't, but a check would be helpful.

 

And William J.Mills for WJM? Possible, possible...

 

Julian

 

[msdt]

Hi Julian,

Will have a look. The book I have is a secondary source, so do not know if it has the complete instructions. Why are the 1932 ones so hard to find???

Cheers,

Tony

[trajan]

3 hours ago, msdt said:

Hi Julian,

Will have a look. The book I have is a secondary source, so do not know if it has the complete instructions. Why are the 1932 ones so hard to find???

Cheers,

Tony

 

I know it is a non-GWF issue, but there have been frequent remarks on the real lack or even exience of post GW P.1907's with unit markings, so nice to know that instructions were issued in 19132 on the matter. I wonder if GB practice was then in a way following pre-GW German practice, namely bayonets were only marked if in reguar service?

 

My interest in the RAF marked ones is because I have never been able to find out anything about these, an example of which I have. I assume they date to WW2, after the RAF Regiment was formed, but I simply have no idea and the RAF Museum has not been helpful in this regard...

 

Julian

[JMB1943]

I have a printed copy of the Instrns for Armrs, 1931 (printed by the Naval & Military Press, 2018) and, interestingly, it does NOT include a list of unit markings.

However, Page 8 shows,

16. The marking of small arms, Lewis machine-guns, bicycles....will be carried out strictly in accordance with Equipment Regulations,

Parts I and III. .....

So another one or two documents have to be located; I wonder if Peter Laidler compiled his list from them.

 

Regards,

JMB

[msdt]

Hi Julian,

 

I've seen lots of 1907's with post WW1 markings. Whenever I see a 1917 or 1918 dated bayonet with regimental marks I assume that it is post war. It may be the case though that their use was not as widespread as pre WW1 and depended on regimental preference. It does seem that units like REME marked frequently, as per your RAF ones.

 

Cheers,

 

Tony

[trajan]

12 hours ago, msdt said:

Hi Julian,

 

I've seen lots of 1907's with post WW1 markings. Whenever I see a 1917 or 1918 dated bayonet with regimental marks I assume that it is post war. It may be the case though that their use was not as widespread as pre WW1 and depended on regimental preference. It does seem that units like REME marked frequently, as per your RAF ones.

 

Cheers,

 

Tony

 

Thanks Tony.

 

Any chance of copying the relevant pages from the book? It could well be out of copyright by now and it would be useful to see what differences there are from the WW1 markings!

 

Julian