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JMB1943

Unit Markings on P.1907 Bayonets

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JMB1943

The British P.1907 bayonet will sometimes be marked on the pommel with an abbreviation that indicates to which unit it was issued.

I have attached the original listing of regimental etc abbreviations taken from 

 

"Instructions to Armourers, issued 1912, revised 1916, War Office"

 

Have not included the abbreviations for OTC Senior Division (universities) & Junior Divn (schools), as they are seldom encountered.

 

Regards,

JMB

Apparently I have NOT attached......

Try again...OK now....

REGT-1.pdf

REGT-2.pdf

REGT-3.pdf

REGT-4.pdf

REGT-5.pdf

REGT-6.pdf

Edited by JMB1943
Add info

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Dave66
45 minutes ago, JMB1943 said:

The British P.1907 bayonet will sometimes be marked on the pommel with an abbreviation that indicates to which unit it was issued.

I have attached the original listing of regimental etc abbreviations taken from 

 

"Instructions to Armourers, issued 1912, revised 1916, War Office"

 

Have not included the abbreviations for OTC Senior Division (universities) & Junior Divn (schools), as they are seldom encountered.

 

Regards,

JMB

Apparently I have NOT attached......

Try again...OK now....

REGT-1.pdf

REGT-2.pdf

REGT-3.pdf

REGT-4.pdf

REGT-5.pdf

REGT-6.pdf

Very useful to have just the unit markings, saves having to trawl through the entire manual.

Many thanks JMB.

 

Dave.

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4thGordons

Thanks for posting this, I am sure it will be helpful to many.

For ease, I took the liberty of combining them into one file (and trimming a little to reduce file size)

Chris

 

Unit Abbr.pdf

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MikeyH

Dave

 

Many thanks for this useful source of information.

 

Mike.

Edited by MikeyH

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trajan

Well done both JMB and 4G! I had downloaded and copied these on a PDF to save all that searching but didn't think to post them here...:blush:

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ghch1555

Hi

 

I'm looking for some help to identify the pommel markings on a  P.1907 that was manufactured in 1915 by Wilkinson (at the Enfield factory).

 

The markings are "SCO R" with the number 637 underneath - image attached.  My guess is that this was a bayonet that was issued to the Scottish Rifles (aka Cameronians).

 

SCO R does not appear on the list in this forum thread.

 

I assume the number 637 is a weapon number or a weapons rack number.  Hopefully someone can confirm both the "SCO R "and the "637" for me?

 

I've attached a summary that I have put together of this particular bayonet and scabbard. 

 

The scabbard has the letters "W.J.M" in a diamond on the inner side of the locket - I'd also be interested to learn what the WJM means.  I'm pretty certain that this scabbard is not original to this bayonet - again comments on that welcomed.

 

The bayonet is now in Victoria, Australia - I guess its reissue in 1923 may have something to do with that.

 

Any info appreciated.

 

Thanks 

 

Stephen

 

IMG_5448.JPG

Details_1915 Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet.pdf

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trajan

Heck, is this another another 'R' for 'Reserve'! Like the proverbial no.7 buses...  But SCO? Scottish Rifles should be 'S.R.'... And as you say, not on the list KMB copied for us... 

 

I think we'd ALL love to know who the WJM in a diamond maker is! Only found - to the best of my knowledge - on P.1907 scabbards, usually on the tear-drop version but I vaguely recall one on a scabbard with round frog stud.

 

On 04/09/2018 at 15:45, ghch1555 said:

... The markings are "SCO R" with the number 637 underneath - image attached.  My guess is that this was a bayonet that was issued to the Scottish Rifles (aka Cameronians).

The scabbard has the letters "W.J.M" in a diamond on the inner side of the locket - I'd also be interested to learn what the WJM means. 

 

IMG_5448.JPG

Details_1915 Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet.pdf

 

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Medaler

Interesting this!

 

As many of you may know, my primary interest is medals, but I have picked up several '07's over the years. To be frank, I know little about them and have never really tried to find out. I picked up an example a couple of years back stamped up to "3 N&DY" which I took to belong to the 3rd (Special Reserve) Btn. Sherwood Foresters. The list here tells me that they used a "DY" code instead. Logic tells me that "DY" would have been more appropriate for the Derbyshire Yeomanry. Not that I'm contradicting the list! just that I've learned something new here. I shall have to trawl through my others and see what I can find. Thanks for the list.

 

I will post a picture.............

 

Regards,

Mike

 

 

Bayonet Markings.JPG

Edited by Medaler
picture added

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msdt

Hi Trajan,

Doing a bit of posting today, been a while. There is another post on this bayonet, it is the Scottish Rifles.

Cheers,

Tony

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trajan
3 hours ago, msdt said:

Hi Trajan,

Doing a bit of posting today, been a while. There is another post on this bayonet, it is the Scottish Rifles.

Cheers,

Tony

 

Hi Tony,

 

Yes, picked up on that... have been writing articles connected with my real work in the UK for a month or so and have just returned to Ankara to the continually increasing demands of ever-growing kids, including Spanish homework for one and German for the other! Tempus truly frugits its way... Still, Saturday, and beer to hand!;)

 

Julian

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trajan
3 hours ago, Medaler said:

Interesting this!

 

As many of you may know, my primary interest is medals, but I have picked up several '07's over the years. To be frank, I know little about them and have never really tried to find out. I picked up an example a couple of years back stamped up to "3 N&DY" which I took to belong to the 3rd (Special Reserve) Btn. Sherwood Foresters. The list here tells me that they used a "DY" code instead. Logic tells me that "DY" would have been more appropriate for the Derbyshire Yeomanry. Not that I'm contradicting the list! just that I've learned something new here. I shall have to trawl through my others and see what I can find. Thanks for the list.

 

I will post a picture.............

 

Regards,

Mike

 

 

Bayonet Markings.JPG

 

Hi Mike,

 

I think you are on to it there - 3rd Notts and Derbyshire Yeomanry? P.194 of 1912/1916 Instructions for Armourers has "N&D" for "Notts and Derby", and "Y" is for Yeomanry. Weren't the Notts and the Derby Yeomanry units amalgamated to form the the Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Mounted Brigade, later the 3rd (Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire) Mounted Brigade? What date is this one?

 

Julian

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Medaler
1 hour ago, trajan said:

 

Hi Mike,

 

I think you are on to it there - 3rd Notts and Derbyshire Yeomanry? P.194 of 1912/1916 Instructions for Armourers has "N&D" for "Notts and Derby", and "Y" is for Yeomanry. Weren't the Notts and the Derby Yeomanry units amalgamated to form the the Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Mounted Brigade, later the 3rd (Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire) Mounted Brigade? What date is this one?

 

Julian

 

Hiya,

I'm not so sure, but then again you can write what I know about Yeomanry on the back of a postage stamp and still have room for the Lords Prayer. Derbyshire Yeomanry I can understand, but not Notts & Derby Yeomanry. There was a 3rd/1st Derbyshire Yeomanry formed in 1915 but, so far as I know, they didn't have Nottinghamshire in their title, so the "N &" at the front of the marking makes no sense.

 

I still think its 3rd (Special Reserve) Btn. Notts & Derby Regt. The "DY" given on the list linked to this thread makes sense for the Sherwood Foresters up to 1903 because they didn't officially put "Nottinghamshire" in the regiment's title until then. Before that, despite the various reforms, the whole lot (1st, 2nd,3rd & 4th Btn's) were still styled as the "Derbyshire Regiment", harking back to the days of the old 95th Foot. There are early 20th C versions of their cap badge around (with King's crown) that just have "Derbyshire" on the ribbon. 

 

As for the date, it's March 1915 I think. Below (hopefully) are pics of  both sides of the blade and a mysterious mark I found on the scabbard below the (oval) stud.

 

Regards,

Mike

Bayonet 2 007.JPG

Bayonet 2 008.JPG

Bayonet 2 006.JPG

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RGJDEE

I can hopefully help with the" mysterious", mark to the chape of your scabbard, looks like the makers mark of Remington,who produced parts and complete scabbards during WW1

(RE within a circle) also marked as a simple RE.I have examples of both marks on different scabbards.

Regards Richard.

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Medaler
4 hours ago, RGJDEE said:

I can hopefully help with the" mysterious", mark to the chape of your scabbard, looks like the makers mark of Remington,who produced parts and complete scabbards during WW1

(RE within a circle) also marked as a simple RE.I have examples of both marks on different scabbards.

Regards Richard.

Hi Richard,

 

Brilliant - thank you for that, I had no idea. I have a confession and an apology that, though not intended to shock proper bayonet enthusiasts will doubtless do so. Firstly, ermmmmm, I hadn't noticed that mark on the chape until today. Secondly, it could do with a bit of clean couldn't it? It actually looks much less red in real life, but I hadn't noticed that either. I will look out the WD40. The blade itself, and the grips, are actually in fairly good condition, with just the odd black speck on the blade.

 

Thanks for improving my knowledge of it. Much appreciated. I will have a dig amongst the others the others and see what I can find.

 

Regards,

Mike

Edited by Medaler

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RGJDEE

Mike, 

glad to be of assistance, happy digging !

regards Richard.

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trajan
11 hours ago, RGJDEE said:

I can hopefully help with the" mysterious", mark to the chape of your scabbard, looks like the makers mark of Remington,who produced parts and complete scabbards during WW1

(RE within a circle) also marked as a simple RE.I have examples of both marks on different scabbards.

Regards Richard.

 

Richard, I was thinking Remington also but never knew they came in different formats! 

 

6 hours ago, Medaler said:

... I have a confession and an apology that, though not intended to shock proper bayonet enthusiasts will doubtless do so. Firstly, ermmmmm, I hadn't noticed that mark on the chape until today. Secondly, it could do with a bit of clean couldn't it? It actually looks much less red in real life, but I hadn't noticed that either. I will look out the WD40. The blade itself, and the grips, are actually in fairly good condition, with just the odd black speck on the blade. ...

 

Many of us collectors would confess - if only when placed on the rack - the same fact, not always noticing at first examination an obscure or poorly defined mark like this! Yes, it could do with a wipe over to clean it up a bit.

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RGJDEE

E2A045F3-2291-4985-9B9C-273FB7B35EC6.jpeg.3746ca3dd039d0edfff0bcd9e23abf6f.jpegTo be honest I only saw the RE in a circle on theEFD s scabbard which I recently acquired , I hadn’t seen it before either !

Edited by RGJDEE

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4thGordons

Recently acquired P1907.

Interesting for a couple of reason.

 

Unit Marked: Although uncertain what (DEP B.W. 6 I).

DSCN9141.jpg.737ed9e2510da8fb9a7976e3bf096150.jpg

 

 

Dull, sand/bead blasted blade finish with paint - the combination of which means virtually no marking visible.

 

I can just see 1907 and what looks to be a '38 reissue and possibly and Enfield Inspections stamp but no visible maker marks or even a bend test X.

I suspect these may become visible if I stripped the paint off the last couple of centimeters of the blade but I am not sure if I want to do that.

 

DSCN9144.jpg.01c32b4ea80b698d75b44ff8ce6370b6.jpg

 

DSCN9146.jpg.cefcc10671b2915200f16a6876552f75.jpg

 

DSCN9148.jpg.312ac8e7d470dd499a7b9c71a6f76c56.jpg

 

Chris

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Dave66
4 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

Recently acquired P1907.

Interesting for a couple of reason.

 

Unit Marked: Although uncertain what (DEP B.W. 6 I).

DSCN9141.jpg.737ed9e2510da8fb9a7976e3bf096150.jpg

 

 

Dull, sand/bead blasted blade finish with paint - the combination of which means virtually no marking visible.

 

I can just see 1907 and what looks to be a '38 reissue and possibly and Enfield Inspections stamp but no visible maker marks or even a bend test X.

I suspect these may become visible if I stripped the paint off the last couple of centimeters of the blade but I am not sure if I want to do that.

 

DSCN9144.jpg.01c32b4ea80b698d75b44ff8ce6370b6.jpg

 

DSCN9146.jpg.cefcc10671b2915200f16a6876552f75.jpg

 

DSCN9148.jpg.312ac8e7d470dd499a7b9c71a6f76c56.jpg

 

Chris

Could it be the Black Watch depot?

Im with you, with the ww2 interest I wouldn't want to remove any finish but frustrating not to see the production date.

 

Dave.

 

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JMB1943

Chris,

 

I had not looked previously at the inspector’s stamp, but now note that it looks to have a horizontal E.

This has been observed with Chapman (2x), EFD (1x), Sanderson (13x) and Mole/Vickers/Wilkinson not at all.

So, you might to expect to see Sanderson under that paint.

 

Regards,

JMB

 

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