The French at Gallipoli

[phil andrade]

2 hours ago, Sly said:

I forgot to mention those who have died before the landings, like the 648 sailors of the "Bouvet" sank on 18 March, and certainly some others too...

 

Sly

 

Sly,

 

In that tabulation from the French official history that you provided, the killed and missing do not allow for deaths from disease, and, I daresay, accidents.  It’s hard to reconcile the numbers of dead in the ossuary interments with the numbers implicit in the battle casualties, unless we consider the numbers from other sectors of the Middle ( and Near) East who might have been concentrated for burial at Gallipoli, the naval deaths that you mention, and deaths from disease ....admittedly, the latter were remarkably few considering the conditions of the campaign ; although I’m wondering if the French proved themselves more successful than their British counterparts in upholding the health of their soldiers, judging by the comments about their entrenchments which have been cited above.

 

Phil

[phil andrade]

From page 225 of my beloved Robert Rhodes James's Gallipoli - admittedly, dated, but endowed with an enduring appeal, rather like its Verdun counterpart Price of Glory by Alistair Horne.....

 

The French had been quick to realise  that it was an absurdity to have their main base at Alexandria, and by the middle of May had established it at Mudros ; they also had appointed a competent officer to administer the Lines of Communication, had given him precise instructions, an adequate staff, and ships specifically allocated to him.

 

That says a lot, doesn't it ?

 

Here was a relatively professional contingent, with proper regard for things that mattered.

 

Phil

 

 

[Eceabat]

Hi Umeu, 

 

A couple of photos in the collection held by my wife and myself may go a small way to illustrating the way in which Senegalese and other colonial troops were viewed by their French mainland colleagues and by authorities. 

 

The two photos are from hospitals, one in Alexandria in Egypt and the other in Tunis, both from 1915. The first shows a large group of wounded French soldiers sitting at tables set in a garden, eating a meal. It is notable that there is mix of Senegalese and mainland French soldiers sitting together, with no segregation.

 

The second photo, from the hospital in Tunis, shows a number of French soldiers along with some nurses. Among the ranks of the soldiers is a Senegalese soldier, sitting next to one of the French nurses.

 

While these two images are in no way conclusive it does seem that there was a degree of fraternité and egalite in the ranks of the French corps. 

 

Cheers

Bill

[Hedley Malloch]

It's a little known fact but there are two French cemeteries in Gallipoli, the Necropole on Helles (see previous posts) and a second, much smaller one in Gelibolu town. The latter was started for Consular staff and French natives living locally, but it was greatly expanded in the middle of the nineteenth century to accommodate over 5,000 French dead, victims of the Crimean War. They are now commemorated on a big monument - see below.

[Hedley Malloch]

And there is an ossuary where 5000 French soldiers are buried.

[Hedley Malloch]

There is also a tomb for Marshal Felix Ney, the second son of Napoleon's right-hand man. This is a real curiosity because he is supposed to have died of cholera at Sebastapol and his his Wikipedia entry has him buried in Père Lachaise in Paris. Perhaps he was buried in Gelibolu for a time?

[phil andrade]

Yes, a timely reminder, Sir.

 

The Crimea was closer to the men at Gallipoli then than Korea is to us now.

 

And, if I’m not mistaken, there were stories that the French had marshalled their logistics and evacuation process better than the British did in that affair, too !

 

Phil

[Hedley Malloch]

Anyway, to bring the thread back to title, there is also a memorial to eleven Sengalese soldiers buried there - see below. They were wounded, taken prisoner and died in Turkish care.

 

I can thoroughly recommend a visit to the cemetery. It takes some finding, but it is really beautiful, a jewel of a setting. Take the dolmus from Eceabat to Gelibolu, walk up to the cemetery, then return to the town by the quayside where there is most impressive memorial to a Turkish Navy submarine which sank with all hands off Gelibolu in the 1950s. Once back in town, go to one of the fish restaurants on the quayside for melon and peynir, fried shrimps, followed by bluefish and salad, all washed down with half-a-bottle of raki. Then take the ferry from the adjacent quay to Lapseki, then another dolmus to Cannakale. This is the sort of day which gives battlefield tourism a good name.

 

 

 

 

[phil andrade]

You know how to sell the dream, don’t you ?

 

Phil

[Sly]

I am so glad to see that, there is not much reference about this cemetery. I have been there only once, it took me a while to find it, one of my turkish mate was a native from Gelibolu and he had never heard about it.

 

I understand that it is the grave of Michel Louis Felix Ney, the second son of Marshal Ney, who died in Sebastopol. The one buried in Père Lachaise cemetery in Paris is his father, Michel Ney.

 

Sly

[b3rn]

Super shots from Hedley Malloch, I enjoyed that virtual tour. I'll post a few of my photos of the French national cemetery, from September this year.

[b3rn]

I think I've hit my upload limit, so a smaller selection. 

 

One is the grave marker for Jules Lecompte of Escadrille MF 98 T. One of three members of the squadron buried here. 

[Sly]

Another place relevant to the French troops is in the Asiatic shore where Senegalese Battalions landed on 25 April 1915. 2 days later the troops were reembarked from Kumkale.

The fort of Kumkale is not open to the public (is it still the case?) but there is another one nearby offering a good view and some of the guns are still in place. I forgot the name of this fort.

 

Sly

 

 

 

 

[michaeldr]

I must say that the in-put here has been wide and wonderful – it's not my thread, but nevertheless thanks to one and all & please keep it coming.

Below is a sketch of the entrance to the Dardanelles as seen from seaward through French eyes,

with a wonderful little slip of the pen describing Hunter-Weston Hill as

Hunter-Winston Hill

 

 

[taken I believe from the IWM/WFA disc of Gallipoli maps]

[Sly]

Beautiful sketch... I love this thread too !

Just to compare here is a photo taken from the Seddul-Bahr fort looking towards the asiatic shore.

Sly

 

 

[Fattyowls]

1 hour ago, Sly said:

Beautiful sketch... I love this thread too !

 

Moi aussi. A quick question if I may Sly - is Kum Kale in your photograph by any chance? I'm researching a British marine called Joseph Bean who was mortally wounded there as early as 4th March 1915. He's my friend Margaret's grandfather or great uncle and I'm going to post a request about him soon so as not to hijack this thread.

 

Pete.

 

Pete.

[Hedley Malloch]

18 hours ago, Sly said:

I understand that it is the grave of Michel Louis Felix Ney, the second son of Marshal Ney, who died in Sebastopol. The one buried in Père Lachaise cemetery in Paris is his father, Michel Ney.

Sly

 

That explains it. Thank you.

[Sly]

Quote

A quick question if I may Sly - is Kum Kale in your photograph by any chance? I'm researching a British marine called Joseph Bean who was mortally wounded there as early as 4th March 1915. He's my friend Margaret's grandfather or great uncle and I'm going to post a request about him soon so as not to hijack this thread

 

Pete, 

I didn't know that there were operations on the ground early March 1915 at KumKale. The French C.E.O war diary mentions that "the old fort of KumKale was a stronghold partially collapsed" on 25 April 1915. There is a map showing the different positions:

 

During the two day battle the French casualties were 787 men (killed, wounded and missing). The diary also mentions a large number of Turkish prisoners.

I took these photos of the area in 2009, where the French landed:

 

 

And KumKale, the old fortifications remains:

 

Sly

[phil andrade]

Sly,

 

If memory serves me, the French claimed 800 Turkish prisoners in that fight : the reason that it comes to mind being that it’s the only reference to a significant haul of prisoners that I’ve encountered for the entire campaign.

 

Editing : Trawling through some online sites, I see Eugene Rogan’s book alludes to the Turks withdrawing from Kim Kale and taking 450 Turkish prisoners with them as they re embarked on 26 April.

 

Phil

Edited 29 November , 2019 by phil andrade

[michaeldr]

23 hours ago, Fattyowls said:

I'm researching a British marine called Joseph Bean who was mortally wounded there as early as 4th March 1915.

 

Pete,

 

You will find details of this action in General Sir H E Blumberg's book 'Britain's Sea Soldiers' (pages 128-130) here https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89100004282&view=1up&seq=167

 

edit to add:

There is a list of the the 4th March 1915 casualties to be seen here https://www.naval-history.net/WW1Battle1503Dardanelles3.htm

It occurs to me that as this was the second landing at Kum Kale, then that may account for the stiff opposition encountered and the number of casualties;

Lt Cdr E G Robinson had won his VC at nearby Yeni Shehr only a few days before, on 26th February 1915

 

regards

Michael

Edited 29 November , 2019 by michaeldr

[seaJane]

[Having accidentally posted this on the wrong thread, here it is in the right place ...]

 

I've extracted the mentions of French presence from a typescript in the archives here which is a copy of the diary of a surgeon aboard HMHS REWA at Gallipoli; thought it might be of interest, apologies if not.

seaJane

 

1915. Weds June 16th. We arrived at Lemnos 6 a.m. Friday 25th and anchored in Mudros Bay. Here inside a boom lie all the French and British ships of war with their auxiliaries, bottled pretty well by the German submarines. It is a most wonderful harbour, capable of holding all the world's warships; the depth of water varies from 15 fathoms in most places to 7 fathoms at inner end. After breakfast we were taken through boom, up between British and French lines and now are awaiting orders. What one can see of the shore appears to be fairly well cultivated, with two or three little villages dotted about and several large encampments, containing I suppose British and French troops.

 

Monday, June 28th. We leave Mudros Harbour 6 a.m. I am up to see, and it strikes one again what a very wonderful harbour it is. The "Mauretania" was in two weeks ago with 9,000 troops. The officers on board (yesterday) told extraordinary story of German submarine running ashore within 500 yards of several French destroyers; they were under impression it was British; watched a picket boat come down coast, pull off submarine, which made its escape safely.

...

A heavy bombardment of all guns started about 6.15 p.m. and went on for about an hour. The continuous battering and roaring of French guns, .75's and howitzers was appalling. All the while our shrapnel was sweeping the ground about Krithia till it appeared to be one mass of flames. I should have mentioned that the first sign of big bombardment was the cruising about of six aeroplanes just as we came out from a swim. About 8 p.m. the fire of big guns ceased, including naval from cruiser on left above Cape Tekeh and then I could hear the continuous rattle of machine guns and rifles, which still continues, and even though it is quite dark the big guns are firing. As darkness came on, the shrapnel appeared as flashes instead of puffs, and the Turks fired numerous star shells, which illuminated the place in a wonderful way.

....

Now following the fighting by what we know was to occur was fairly easy. On the left are Indians, and they are behind line of British and French, so they were to advance, that could be followed, and they evidently managed some advance, for as far as I could make out the Turks counter-attacked so strongly that the French attacked on right to prevent their counter-attacks being too heavy. It is now 10.35 and firing is still going on. It has been an extraordinary day, I might write for a week and yet forget some incident, but I must to bed for there must be several hundreds of our poor lads wounded, and it will be a busy day tomorrow.

 

Wednesday, June 30th. 1 a.m., repetition of yesterday, thought one shell had hit ship, splashes came aboard, we drifted a little closer to shore. French battleship in action, lightning at night.

 

Friday, July 9th. Left Malta at 6.15, almost took the tailor who brought my suits with us. A very hot day. Busy most of day chasing round ship seeing to fixing up of things in general. Learn today that the French troopship "Carthage", which was lying close by us at Helles was torpedoed day after we left.

 

Sunday, July 11th. Heard first gun fire in my cabin about 7.45, things evidently not so busy as last time. We anchored just after breakfast not quite in same place as before, but a little further north, with Cape Tekeh on our beam, having an excellent view of Achi Baba and ground in front of it. The Turkish lines appear very close judging by the bursting of our shells and shrapnel. During the morning an aeroplane was hovering over Turkish lines and they kept it on the move with shrapnel. Two big French guns, new ones - we hear landed in darkness night before last - are shelling the Asiatic shore, searching in hollows for "Annie”. It is quite evident that they have not found her, for just before lunch she dropped one or two shells just a wee bit near us, and during the greater part of afternoon her shells have been screaming by; it is a hideous noise.

...

"La Bretagne", the French Hospital Ship I went over in Dunkirk, is here out beyond us.

 

Monday July 12th. 11.15 p.m. Rifle fire incessant, brilliant star shells, occasional boom of big French guns.

 

Friday July 30th. A French cruiser has just been firing too at Achi Baba; she has cleared off now.

 

Monday, August 2nd. Yesterday was a very busy day. I did some 16 operations (2 or 3 big ones), a great number of dressings, eventually finishing about 10.30. I was fortunate in that I got 1 1/2 hours sleep in afternoon. In evening I had one very satisfactory case, 3rd part axillary artery pierced by bullet. German aeroplane passed over ship chased by Frenchman, that making fourth time an enemy aircraft has been over and not once have I been able to see it.

 

[michaeldr]

2 hours ago, michaeldr said:

You will find details of this action in General Sir H E Blumberg's book 'Britain's Sea Soldiers' (pages 128-130) here https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89100004282&view=1up&seq=167

edit to add:

There is a list of the the 4th March 1915 casualties to be seen here https://www.naval-history.net/WW1Battle1503Dardanelles3.htm

It occurs to me that as this was the second landing at Kum Kale, then that may account for the stiff opposition encountered and the number of casualties;

Lt Cdr E G Robinson had won his VC at nearby Yeni Shehr only a few days before, on 26th February 1915

 

A kind friend in Australia sent me a copy of the Mitchell Report, where this photograph of the Kum Kale landing place can be found

 

 

 

[michaeldr]

From the same report: a sketch map showing the relative positions of Kum Kale and Yeni Shehr (mentioned in my No.45 above)

 

 

 

[michaeldr]

Two further illustrations from the report which may be of interest here

 

 

[michaeldr]

In case (dear reader) you are a recent recruit to this front, then the following old threads are also worth a visit