Reproduction 1908 Pattern 'Waist Belt, Special' + Brace Attachments

[peregrinvs]

Have just got back from a trip to Western Australia and whilst there I treated myself to some reproduction brace attachments and a waist belt special from Lawrance Ordnance of Sydney. (Thereby saving myself the international postage cost + import duty) Here's some pictures.

 

The brass is all new made, so the shapes aren't 100% correct. Still fully functional though and the general quality is very good.

[peregrinvs]

Here's some pictures of them assembled into a pistol order set. The pistol case and braces are original. The pistol ammunition pouch is a reproduction made by What Price Glory which I recoloured to match the pistol case.

[peregrinvs]

Lastly here's what I started with: 'field expedient' pistol order which has the braces looped over a standard belt and secured with 2" buckles.

 

The sort of long term aim is to replace the reproduction bits with originals - should I be fortunate enough to bump into them at a price I like. I'm aware the belt and brace attachments are like hen's teeth, but the pistol ammunition pouches are more common. Has anyone got an example of the latter for sale?

[gordon92]

Nice photos.  So, what is the final destination of this set? Mannequin? Re-enactment?

[paulowen]

It's a picky point but aren't those back buckles on the belt upside down?

[peregrinvs]

12 hours ago, gordon92 said:

Nice photos.  So, what is the final destination of this set? Mannequin? Re-enactment?

Nothing so exciting I'm afraid. It's currently filed in the 1908 Pattern box amongst the webbing collection in the loft.

[peregrinvs]

8 hours ago, paulowen said:

It's a picky point but aren't those back buckles on the belt upside down?

Having looked at Karkeeweb, I fear you're right. Silly of me not to notice that before. Spoilt for a ha'porth of tar, etc.

 

Ah well. It's raison d'être is as a place holder in the hope that I eventually acquire an original.

[Andrew Upton]

14 hours ago, paulowen said:

It's a picky point but aren't those back buckles on the belt upside down?

 

6 hours ago, peregrinvs said:

Having looked at Karkeeweb, I fear you're right. Silly of me not to notice that before. Spoilt for a ha'porth of tar, etc.

 

Ah well. It's raison d'être is as a place holder in the hope that I eventually acquire an original.

 

I would write and point this out to Lawrence Ordnance myself, and reference the Karkee Web images. It is clearly not a one-off mistake as their website pictures have the same error repeated, and they are the sort of people who like to do things right. Might even sort out a correct replacement, etc.

[peregrinvs]

On 06/09/2018 at 16:37, Andrew Upton said:

I would write and point this out to Lawrence Ordnance myself, and reference the Karkee Web images. It is clearly not a one-off mistake as their website pictures have the same error repeated, and they are the sort of people who like to do things right. Might even sort out a correct replacement, etc.

I did and a correctly constructed replacement they had from an older batch has been dispatched to me in the UK free of charge. Shame about the first belt, but I can't fault their customer service.

[Chasemuseum]

13 hours ago, peregrinvs said:

I did and a correctly constructed replacement they had from an older batch has been dispatched to me in the UK free of charge. Shame about the first belt, but I can't fault their customer service.

Good to hear. Simon is a very reputable individual. 

[peregrinvs]

Update. The replacement belt turned up from Lawrance Ordnance and I have reassembled the set.

 

For my own amusement, I’ve added an original P08 buckle to the belt that a friend kindly donated. It doesn’t make the belt less of a reproduction, but it does at least now have a little real P08 DNA in it. 😉

 

It also fits the belt better than the repro buckle. It would be nice to add an original slider to it as well. I’m also still after an original P08 pistol ammunition pouch.

 

[Pete_C]

Looks great but it may be worth mentioning to the makers that the inside 1” buckles are also upside down. The open gate of a Twigg buckle should always face the open end of the strap that passes through it. Not visible when worn of course, but they may want to correct it for the next batch.

 

All the best,

 

Pete

[peregrinvs]

I’m a bit confused. The open end of the 1” buckles faces upwards. You can see it here:

 

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1908/pics/pistol equipment/html/1917_belt_reverse.html

 

 

 

[Pete_C]

9 hours ago, peregrinvs said:

I’m a bit confused. The open end of the 1” buckles faces upwards. You can see it here:

 

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1908/pics/pistol equipment/html/1917_belt_reverse.html

 

 

 

Sorry, my mistake, you’re absolutely correct.

In my defence I’d add that there are 23 Twigg buckles on a set of Pattern 1908 in Marching Order configuration, and when assembled correctly the open gated bar of all the buckles faces the running end of the strap (the end with the brass tip).  I can’t imagine they got the orientation wrong when designing the special waistbelt - there must be a good reason why these two buckles face the other way, if anyone knows.......

 

Cheers

 

Pete

 

 

 

Edited 30 September , 2018 by Pete_C

[peregrinvs]

Update. I have acquired an original ammunition pouch for my set. 😊

 

A lucky spot on eBay and I got it for a very good price. (It came with a ‘free’ Sam Browne belt as well - see other thread) It’s 1936 dated, but I take a ‘WWI dates are desirable, but not essential’ approach to these things. The holster above is 1937 dated.

 

However, the sharp-eyed amongst you may have noticed the fly in the ointment: the hooks have been bent upwards to fit the narrower Sam Browne belt. Re-bending them to P08 belt width without damaging the leather is the next challenge.

 

[Dave1418]

It would be easier to cut the stitching on the edge and on one side only of the hooks, replace the hooks with straight ones and the sew them back up. 

[peregrinvs]

It would appear I was being unduly pessimistic. It’s a tight-ish fit, but no hook re-bending was required. 👍

 

[RangeRover]

Coming together. Nice!

[peregrinvs]

They say all things come to those who wait...

 

Snagged earlier this week during a late night trawl of a well known internet auction site. The buy it now price would have been slightly expensive for an ordinary belt in this condition, but it was cheap for a special belt. 👌

 

As you can see, there’s a slight fly in the ointment - the internal 1” Twigg buckles have been removed at some point. However, as luck would have it I have two tabbed buckles in my spares pile that are near perfect ‘drop in’ replacements. The plan is to send it to webbing repair wizard Richard Knight to have them stitched on. I’ve also lightly ‘re-khakified’ the exterior since taking the pics as the exterior was very pale and discoloured.

 

I never thought I’d get a real Waist Belt, Special, so I’m pretty chuffed about this. (Clearly I had to go to the time, trouble and expense of getting a reproduction one from Australia before fate would allow it) Dare I dream that some original brace attachments might turn up one day as well..?

 

 

[GRANVILLE]

Once the buckles get stitched on you would be hard pressed to tell they were not the originals, just make sure they put on the right way round!

David

[peregrinvs]

7 minutes ago, GRANVILLE said:

Once the buckles get stitched on you would be hard pressed to tell they were not the originals, just make sure they put on the right way round!

Yes. Somewhat of a strange coincidence that I already had exactly what’s needed to restore it. I’d always assumed they’d come off a P37 haversack, but who knows..?

 

Post-re-khakification (good word that...) pictures. The tabbed buckles have merely been posed in the correct position.

 

[peregrinvs]

On 29/09/2018 at 21:38, Pete_C said:

The open gate of a Twigg buckle should always face the open end of the strap that passes through it.

Another item with ‘reversed’ Twigg buckles is the ‘Haversack, Other Services’:

 

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1908/pics/haversacks/html/1908_hsack_os_front.html

 

My memory of this was jogged when I acquired a tidy and well priced example with attached P08 brace at the War & Peace Show on Tuesday. Possibly 1930’s Indian production.

[Pete_C]

14 hours ago, peregrinvs said:

Another item with ‘reversed’ Twigg buckles is the ‘Haversack, Other Services’:

 

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1908/pics/haversacks/html/1908_hsack_os_front.html

 

My memory of this was jogged when I acquired a tidy and well priced example with attached P08 brace at the War & Peace Show on Tuesday. Possibly 1930’s Indian production.

At first glance, yes, but the design is intended to allow the open end of the brace to sit at the back of the haversack when fitted, so the buckle (as shown in the KW photograph) would tilt the other way to accommodate this. It’s the same principle as the entrenching tool head carrier when fastened correctly to the extension tabs at the rear of the belt.

I still can’t figure why the 1” buckles on the inside of the special belt face the other way - the only possible configuration to support this would be if the diagonal straps passed on the outside rear of the belt and looped back underneath, rather than passing on the inside, directly to the buckle - but that’s highly implausible.

Did you see the genuine brace attachments and special belt that came up at the C&T auction a couple of weeks ago - complete with braces, holster and pouch ? A very impressive looking set but with buyer’s premium etc, ended up around £1,400. 

 

Pete

Edited 28 July , 2019 by Pete_C

[peregrinvs]

On 28/07/2019 at 12:39, Pete_C said:

At first glance, yes, but the design is intended to allow the open end of the brace to sit at the back of the haversack when fitted, so the buckle (as shown in the KW photograph) would tilt the other way to accommodate this. It’s the same principle as the entrenching tool head carrier when fastened correctly to the extension tabs at the rear of the belt.

I still can’t figure why the 1” buckles on the inside of the special belt face the other way - the only possible configuration to support this would be if the diagonal straps passed on the outside rear of the belt and looped back underneath, rather than passing on the inside, directly to the buckle - but that’s highly implausible.

Did you see the genuine brace attachments and special belt that came up at the C&T auction a couple of weeks ago - complete with braces, holster and pouch ? A very impressive looking set but with buyer’s premium etc, ended up around £1,400. 

Aha. I did wonder whether I’d missed something. I suppose they look nicer with the buckles posed that way in pictures. 😉

 

Your guess is is as good as mine about the 1” buckles. I wonder if there’s a spec sheet for making the belts buried in the archives somewhere? It could even be something as daft as a design error that never got corrected. 

 

I hadn’t heard of the auction. Phew! Not for the likes of me as I generally try to avoid paying the market rate for such things. I find the ‘wait for a bargain to turn up’ approach often pays off in the long term. The genuine belt pictured above has gone off to Richard Knight to be repaired and I can live with repro brace attachments for the foreseeable future.

 

 

[hackneygurkha]

I have managed to find a genuine 1908 waist belt special. Its 1918 dated and a large size. I will be parting with it as I am looking to finance some other very expensive projects (a Lewis auto rifle, 1907 field grey tunic...) If anyone is interested, please just let me know. I'll be going to Farnham fair on 1st September so can bring it with me then.