12th Battalion Royal Fusiliers 1914-18 soldier

[wf789]

Hi guys,

 

I'm trying to research my Nan's Dad - J Murphy 12/R. Fus., Pte. 2924. So far I have been able to find his service dates being 1.9.15 to 29.1.18 (12 R Fus.) and 30.1.18 to 21.2.18 (1 R Fus.) from a medical document on Find My Past however I have been unsuccessful in my searches for a service record so I assume it was lost in the WW2 bombings.

 

What I am trying to find out is what exactly he was doing in the war. This very useful website "www.12rf.org" was very helpful but do I just assume he took part in all of these "battles" listed on the left hand side between 1915-18? I assume this was not the case since the 12th was probably very large but I'm not sure. Hopefully someone here can give me some guidance as I'm a bit lost!

 

I've sent an email to 12rf.org but I'm still awaiting a reply as I only sent it the other day.

 

Cheers,

 

Will

 

Edited 18 July , 2018 by wf789

[saw119]

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1262/30850_A001129-00873?pid=1603552&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3Dbyu466%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26qh%3DF70oIzJP9e7pwGU0Iq1EzA%3D%3D%26db%3DMedalRolls%26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsln%3DMurphy%26gsln_x%3D1%26_F00061C3%3Droyal%20fusiliers%26_F8007A65%3D2924%EF%BB%BF%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3D284%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D0%26h%3D1603552%26recoff%3D10%2022%2066%2067%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=byu466&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

 

Is this him?

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-fusiliers-city-of-london-regiment/

 

[wf789]

2 hours ago, saw119 said:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1262/30850_A001129-00873?pid=1603552&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3Dbyu466%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26qh%3DF70oIzJP9e7pwGU0Iq1EzA%3D%3D%26db%3DMedalRolls%26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsln%3DMurphy%26gsln_x%3D1%26_F00061C3%3Droyal%20fusiliers%26_F8007A65%3D2924%EF%BB%BF%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3D284%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D0%26h%3D1603552%26recoff%3D10%2022%2066%2067%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=byu466&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

 

Is this him?

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-fusiliers-city-of-london-regiment/

 

 

Hi Saw119,

 

Yes, that's him. Unfortunately I don't have his medals. I know the dates of his service but don't know exactly what he was doing in the 12th.

 

Cheers,

 

Will

Edited 18 July , 2018 by wf789

[johnboy]

What was his  year of birth and where from?

Edited 18 July , 2018 by johnboy

[wf789]

3 minutes ago, johnboy said:

What was his  year of birth and where from?

 

Hi John,

 

He was born on 23 Sept 1892 in Colchester, England according to Ancestry. Here is an album of the military documents/info I was able to find.

 

https://imgur.com/a/i0fHTCP

 

Cheers,

 

Will

[clk]

Hi Will,

 

Welcome over from the BMF.

 

4 hours ago, wf789 said:

What I am trying to find out is what exactly he was doing in the war.

 

The 12th Bn war diary is at the National Archives here, and the 1st Bn here. Depending on how much more contextual info you'd like, it would probably be worth looking at the Brigade HQ, and Division HQ (general staff) diaries as well, as they often contain things such as maps, orders, and reports on operations that aren't in the Battalion diary. None are likely to mention him by name though. The National Archives search page is here. All of the diaries will also be on Ancestry (search page), but from them it's a real pain to get a copy as you have to download a page at a time.

 

4 hours ago, wf789 said:

his service dates being 1.9.15 to 29.1.18 (12 R Fus.)

 

The date of 1st September 1915, is when he went overseas, not when he first joined up. You could try to do some near number sampling for men in the regiment that have surviving papers, and see if you can find a pattern of enlistment dates. For example 2920 Lawrence attested 14.9.1914.

 

Regards

Chris

[MaxD]

The medal roll you have gives part of the story.  The move from 12 RF to 1 RF in Feb 1918** was because the 12th Battalion was disbanded then and the men dispersed to other battalions (in his case 1st Battalion).  The medal card has his date of entry to France as 1 September 1915 which is the date that 12 Battalion RF went to France.  I believe it is reasonable to assume that he took part with those actions that the two battalion were involved in between his overseas start and finish date..

 

Chris has linked the two relevant war diaries.

 

** The 12 Bn war diary records the move of men to 1st Bn as 4 Feb 1918.

 

Max

Edited 18 July , 2018 by MaxD
correct caps

[wf789]

11 minutes ago, clk said:

The 12th Bn war diary is at the National Archives here, and the 1st Bn here. Depending on how much more contextual info you'd like, it would probably be worth looking at the Brigade HQ, and Division HQ (general staff) diaries as well, as they often contain things such as maps, orders, and reports on operations that aren't in the Battalion diary. None are likely to mention him by name though. The National Archives search page is here. All of the diaries will also be on Ancestry (search page), but from them it's a real pain to get a copy as you have to download a page at a time.

 

 

The date of 1st September 1915, is when he went overseas, not when he first joined up. You could try to do some near number sampling for men in the regiment that have surviving papers, and see if you can find a pattern of enlistment dates. For example 2920 Lawrence attested 14.9.1914.

 

Regards

Chris

 

Hi Chris, thank you. I will have a sit down on the weekend and look through the diaries, thank you for the links. 

 

That's useful that you mention the date 1st Sept 1915 is when he went overseas but not when he joined the 12th Battalion. I assume it will not say in the war diaries 2924 joined in x date, but I'll take a look and hopefully it will!

 

Cheers, Will

 

9 minutes ago, MaxD said:

The medal roll you have gives part of the story.  The move from 12 RF to 1 RF in Feb 1918 was because the 12th Battalion was disbanded then and the men dispersed to other battalions (in his case 1st Battalion).  The medal card has his date of entry to France as 1 September 1915 which is the date that 12 Battalion RF went to France.  I believe it is reasonable to assume that he took part with those actions that the two battalion were involved in between his overseas start and finish date..

 

Chris has linked the two relevant war diaries.

 

Max

Hi Max, 

 

I read about the 12th Battalion disbanding on 12rf.org and assumed that is what happened, thanks for confirming. So you do believe he joined the 12th on 1st Sept 1915 despite of what Chris said above?

 

If that's the case, according to 12rf (I'll have to read the diaries myself as well) he was in the "Battle of Loos 1915, Ypres Area Trenches 1915-16, Battle of the Somme 1916, Vimy Area 1916, Loos Trenches 1916, Battle of Arras 1917, Battle of Messines 1917, Third Battle of Ypres 1917, Vadencourt 1917?" Jesus, that's a lot...

 

Cheers,

 

Will

Edited 18 July , 2018 by wf789

[MaxD]

 

No, I said, as did Chris, that he went overseas on 1 Sept 1915.  Chris's suggestion to look for other possible records for men with near numbers  may give his approx. enlistment date.  Us.the medal roll that you have and try to find records of other men in 12th Bn .

 

Max

 

More

2926 L/Cpl Myall of 12th Bn has a Silver War Badge and his date of enlistment is given as 8 Sep 1914.  You'll have noted that 12th Bn was formed Sep 1914.  Indicative.

 

Max

Edited 18 July , 2018 by MaxD
addition

[wf789]

6 minutes ago, MaxD said:

No, I said, as did Chris, that he went overseas on 1 Sept 1915.  Chris's suggestion to look for other possible records for men with near numbers  may give his approx. enlistment date.  Us.the medal roll that you have and try to find records of other men in 12th Bn .

 

Max

 

I understand, apologies I misread. Thanks guys - I'll have a read of the war diaries and try to find out the approx date of when he joined.

 

However, if you look at the 3rd picture of my album on the medal roll, it looks like a lot of men have the "date of disembarkation" as 1.9.15. Surely it is not just a coincidence many men joined on the 1.9.15 which is the same date that the 12th Bn went to France. I will still try to find out through the diaries though!

 

Cheers,

 

Will

[MaxD]

You are looking at the men of the 12th Battalion that went to France on the same day with the 12th Battalion.  Men didn't join the army and go to the front on the same day!!!

 

The diaries have no, zero, zilch information of when men joined the army.

 

Max

[clk]

Hi Will,

 

As Max says, they have the same disembarkment date because that's the date that the unit arrived in France. So he must have gone over as an original member, rather than having been sent later as a reinforcement. The medal rolls are only concerned with service in active theatre. So, they do not tell you anything about prior home service such as when they originally joined up. Usually (but not always) when a man joined a regiment/battalion, the service number that they were issued with was based sequentially on their join up date. That's why looking for surviving records of 'near number' men may help to establish a pattern, from which you can make a reasonable inference.

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

[johnboy]

do you have his address in colchester and where he was born?

[kenf48]

The medical record on FMP referred to in the original post shows he was admitted to 39th CCS in August 1916 suffering from influenza.  

On admission the record shows 2 years and 3 months service and 11 months with the ‘Field Force’ i.e. in France.

( The apparent anomaly noted).

 

Ken 

[MaxD]

Presumably you mean anomaly with the service time - May 1914 does seem a bit early?  The 11 months in theatre adds up, Sep 15 disembarkation to Aug 16.

 

Max

[johnboy]

If the OP answers my post #13 it may give extra info on him being a pre war soldier.

[wf789]

On 19/07/2018 at 10:28, johnboy said:

If the OP answers my post #13 it may give extra info on him being a pre war soldier.

 

Hi guys, sorry for the late reply. I haven't been able to get on the computer.

 

Unfortunately I don't have the address in Colchester, I only have this information from Ancestry: Hopefully it can give you some extra info.

 

James Henry Murphy 1892–1977

BIRTH 23 SEP 1892 • Colchester, England, United Kingdom

DEATH 2 NOV 1977 • Southend-on-Sea, Essex, England

 

Also, I don't know why in all the military records, he used "J" as his first name instead of his full first name.

[MaxD]

Not entirely the case.  His British War and Victory medal roll entry uses James, his 1914/15 Star roll uses J, the medal card has J but has James annotated.  His detailed record, had it survived, would have used his forenames.  What appears on a record is up to the clerk that filled it in, not him.  

 

Hopefully the fact that at least two of the men with service numbers close to his in the 12th RF joined in September 1914 is enough to convince you that on the balance of probabilities, your man also joined in that month.

 

Max

[BarryF]

 

Hi Will,

 

My apologies about the problems with the 12RF email responses but I hope I have fixed the glitch!

 

I think I can cast some light on your relative's WW1 service.

 

First, we have two readily available sources to work with.  I know you are already familiar with most of this but I include these summary facts just for clarity.

 

The 1st/2nd Royal Fusiliers 1914-15 Star Medal Roll (image sent to you)

 

Drawn up by the  last unit the soldier served in, the medal was awarded by reference to the date that the soldier first entered a theatre of war and tells us:

 

1.  1915 - JM was in 12RF when he disembarked in France ( see the (1) which was the France and Flanders theatre) on the 1st September 1915 (they sailed from Folkestone to Boulogne).  He was with the main body of the Battalion (and my dad!).

 

2.  1919 - When the Roll was drawn up in 1919, JM was in the 1st Battalion RF (12RF had been disbanded when the army was reorganised in 1918 and the men were transferred to other units).

 

The Royal Fusiliers British War and Victory Medal Roll (image sent to you)

 

Drawn up in 1920 it refers to a date band of service in a theatre of war (a band because there was a qualifying period for one of the medals):

 

1.  JM left the 12RF roll on the 29th January 1918 (during the period of the Bn's disbandment) and joined the 1st Battalion RF the next day.

 

2.  He served with the 1st Battalion RF in a theatre until the 21 February 1918.

 

3.  Referring back to the 14-15 Roll, we know that the 1st Battalion was his last Battalion as the Roll was compiled by the last unit in which a soldier had served.

 

So why did he leave 1RF in February 1918?  I cannot trace a record of him being wounded or sick.  And as he was only 23 in 1918, age would not have been a factor.  I will continue to look into this.

 

The 39th Casualty Clearing Station Admissions/Discharges (image sent to you)

 

You probably know he entered hospital with influenza on the 31st July 1916 and after 17 days ('flu was serious in those days, especially in WW1 front line conditions) he was discharged back to duty from No 39 Casualty Clearing Station on the 16th August.  The 39th CCS was in Allonville at the time he was admitted.  His unit, 12RF, was in billets about 12 miles west of there in a village called Saint-Pierre-à-Gouy.

 

The CCS register also confirms that he had served 11 months with a Field Force (12RF) - confirming the September 1915 date for entry into a theatre of war.

 

Importantly in the context of your enquiry as to when he joined the army, his CCS record confirms that by the time he was in the 39th CCS at the end of July 1916 he had served 2 years and 3 months - that tells us he enlisted in May 1914.

 

Whilst we cannot be absolutely certain as there are no records extant specifically relevant to JM's enlistment, from records of other 12RF soldiers with regimental numbers close to JM's and a similar service history, he would have volunteered in May 1914 and, after attestation formalities, would have eventually arrived in Hounslow (RF Depot) by August September 1914 when 12RF was formed (13 Sep 1914).  So, in the context of the training that would follow, he almost certainly only served with 12RF.  In November 1914 he would have moved with 12RF for training to Shoreham, Brighton, and Pirbright Camp.  From Pirbright, he went to war.

 

The 12RF website gives more detail, with War Diary extracts and many images.  Let me know if you have any difficulties logging in or navigating the website.

 

I hope the above is helpful but I will now have another look at his post-21 February 1918 service.

 

Barry

Barry Fleming

WFA Membership No: 11436

Researching 12th (Service) Battalion Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment)

www.12rf.org

[johnboy]

From above post

 And as he was only 23 in 1918, age would not have been a factor.  Not if born in 1882 he would have been 36yrs old

 

[BarryF]

35 minutes ago, johnboy said:

36 minutes ago, johnboy said:

From above post

 And as he was only 23 in 1918, age would not have been a factor.  Not if born in 1882 he would have been 36yrs old

 

err ... where does 1882 come into it?

[johnboy]

Try and have a look at post#17

[BarryF]

9 minutes ago, johnboy said:

Try and have a look at post#17

I tried. I looked and I succeeded. And my question remains ... where did your 1882 come from?  No need to reply.

[johnboy]

 My typo should have been 1892 

[BarryF]

18 hours ago, wf789 said:

 

Hi guys, sorry for the late reply. I haven't been able to get on the computer.

 

Unfortunately I don't have the address in Colchester, I only have this information from Ancestry: Hopefully it can give you some extra info.

 

James Henry Murphy 1892–1977

BIRTH 23 SEP 1892 • Colchester, England, United Kingdom

DEATH 2 NOV 1977 • Southend-on-Sea, Essex, England

 

Also, I don't know why in all the military records, he used "J" as his first name instead of his full first name.

Hi Will,

Is it possible that the James Murphy of 12RF was only 'James' (I cannot trace reference to a middle name 'Henry') but he had a son James H(enry?) Murphy born 17 April 1919 to James snr of 12RF fame and his wife Mabel.  Confusingly, on one record he records his dob as 28 Sep 1893.