Now identified: The "Rev'd J. Boyan" = The Rev'd John Morgan, Chaplain to the Forces

[Matlock1418]

On 29/05/2018 at 10:41, inkerman said:

during my service the verbal form of address was 'Padre' as in  'if you want to marry her, go and see the Padre'  and on a training programme 'Padre's Hour'.  I am away from my books but I recall an episode in Manning's 'Her Private's We' where Bourne gets a cheque cashed by the padre.  Quite aware that I am working from memory and that I couldbe mistaken.  the Padre's written title was thus: Captain A B Smith CF.

 

Richard 

 

Thanks to one and all who have replied to my 'aside' on how to refer to/address a Chaplain.

I now think probably as with Inkerman above - "Padre" etc. with "CF" being "Chaplain to the Forces" I would assume [hope that not ass of u & me]

 

Thanks for that poignant photo - a different war, but certainly not a soft billet.

Field Service and Home Service dealing with the physically (and mentally) wounded, sick, dying and burial likewise - whatever the period

That's why I am interested in "Boyan" - to get him some sort of recognition

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, daggers said:

What about “BRYAN”

D

 

Now back to the main task - who is "Boyan"?

Tried that one thanks - but others may have more success with that and/or other surnames.

Still looking ...

[Robin Garrett]

Chaplains' wear the same rank badges as other officers but they are ranked as Chaplain to the Forces Class 4 (CF4) and so on. A CF4 wears three stars, a CF3 a crown and so on.

[keithmroberts]

Matlock

 

if your local library has copies of Crockford's clerical directory you can at least eliminate or confirm Boyan where Anglicans are concerned, by checking a copy for 1918. He certainly does not feature in the 1923 edition.

 

Keith

[Dragoon]

Zooming in on the certificate, as best i can, could it be J 'Bryan'?

Just a thought

 

Chris

[daggers]

Ahem...

 

[Matlock1418]

I'm grateful for the continued interest  :-)

For the benefit of one and all - here's my best effort at his name image

I just can't see it any other way than "J. Boyan"

 

 

 

Though I appreciate that the clerk may have misheard / misrecorded it.

The hunt goes on ...

Edited 29 May , 2018 by Matlock1418

[daggers]

On seeing the better image I withdraw my suggestion of Bryan on page 1 of the thread.

Having trawled through CWGC's new 'improved' version I found only one likely burial, which was in Leominster Cemetery, not in the parish churchyard.  This is for Pte T. Warburton, 23986, Cheshire Regiment, date of death 14 Feb 1918.  Is this any use as a clue?

D

[Matlock1418]

14 minutes ago, daggers said:

On seeing the better image I withdraw my suggestion of Bryan on page 1 of the thread.

Having trawled through CWGC's new 'improved' version I found only one likely burial, which was in Leominster Cemetery, not in the parish churchyard.  This is for Pte T. Warburton, 23986, Cheshire Regiment, date of death 14 Feb 1918.  Is this any use as a clue?

D

 

'daggers' - Thanks for continuing to ponder ...

 

That is the very same casualty from whose burial record the record image and "Boyan" name originally came

See also my earlier post on page one - Never mind.

 

I think the CWGC date is possibly / probably wrong for this Pte. Warburton as his private headstone also says 13 Feb. 1918 - like the Burial Record [and CWGC's own Grave Registration Report Form] and his forename initial "T" appears slightly off [the GRRF has JT] and other records would also suggest John Thomas as per his burial & headstone - but those are other matters in progress, perhaps not for today - actually, if anyone has any info on this man then I'd be pleased to also learn about it please.

 

Have sought Pte. Warburton's religion as a starting / narrowing point for "The Rev'd" but that is also proving elusive at CWGC and Leominster Cemetery / Hereford. Council [who now administer such records and burial grounds etc.] - still seeking it though.

 

No harm in your, and others'. suggestion(s)

Please don't be put off - I've looked at plenty of alternatives for his surname [homophones and similar - think that is what they are called] - including Boylan, Boyland, Bowland, Bolan, Bowen, Boyd, Boyde, Boyle etc. just in case it was mis-recorded - but still drawn a blank. [as I think the start of a name is usually / probably more accurate than its ending - others may disagree and boy, no pun intended [oh yes it was! ;-) ], wouldn't I be pleased to be corrected!!!]

 

Still hoping for some GWF moment of inspiration and enlightenment - Please don't give up folks!

In hope ...

 

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, keithmroberts said:

Matlock

 

if your local library has copies of Crockford's clerical directory you can at least eliminate or confirm Boyan where Anglicans are concerned, by checking a copy for 1918. He certainly does not feature in the 1923 edition.

 

Keith

 

I think the question-mark over his "Boyan" name and unknown religion are proving cripplers.

 

Have looked at the catalogues of my 3 most local library areas - No joy [2004 was the nearest Crockford's and I think a tad off the mark!]

 

Wikipedia suggests 1917 and 1918/1919 [combined apparently] are perhaps the ones to look at for starters - If anyone has a copy(ies) and can have a browse for me then I'd be grateful.

 

Think others may have already had a look though - if that's the case then I'm already very grateful to you.  :-)

 

[Matlock1418]

4 hours ago, Robin Garrett said:

Chaplains' wear the same rank badges as other officers but they are ranked as Chaplain to the Forces Class 4 (CF4) and so on. A CF4 wears three stars, a CF3 a crown and so on.

 

Cl 3 = Major

Cl 2 = Lt-Col

Cl 1 = Col

And then you go higher??  ;-)

[daggers]

Deleted, as too many red herrings in what I posted.

D

 

 

Edited 30 May , 2018 by daggers
see above

[alf mcm]

Chaplains in Britain were sometimes attached to Military Hospitals, and their duties may have extended to local Auxiliary Hospitals. I googled hospitals at Leominster and came up with the Hampton Court Auxiliary Hospital. I then checked Findmypast for Hampton Court Hospital and came up with https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000727%2f19180921%2f111  an article on 21^st September 1918 entitled ‘Pound Day Record’. The article above it ‘Floral Aeroplane as Tribute of Sympathy’ was more interesting. It mentions a funeral held in Esher Church by Rev. J.K. Floyer. Could this be Rev. J.Boyer after he left the Army?

Regards,

Alf McM

[Matlock1418]

3 minutes ago, daggers said:

More pondering.  Soldiers Died has T Warburton, 23986, 12th Battalion RWF, died at home, born Kimbolton, resided Leominster but CWGC have Cheshire Regt.

In 1911 the census shows a John Thomas Warburton at Eaton (?) Cottage, Leominster, aged 11, born Kimbolton.  Father is head of the household, married but no wife listed.

 

Putting John Thomas Warburton into Ancestry brings up a family group which includes a service record set for JTW, but with a different service number, 65591.  This one died at Norfolk War Hospital, Norwich  of tonsillitis followed by septicaemia.  Next of kin was mother who appear to have remarried and lived at Runcorn and one feint entry seems to show 'buried at Runcorn'.  The regiment was Cheshires, and only Training Battalions are listed.

 

Are these the same man?  My eyes will not do any more just now - hay fever on top of age, but I'll have another poke around to see what ties together.  No clues about the chaplain anywhere so far.

 

D

 

 

I go with the first offering as think I can track father, mother and siblings - one of whom, his sister Ada, is on top of him and her husband in the grave

JTW was apparently buried 9' deep so some prior preparation there I think [prob by his sister]

"Re-united" says the headstone

[Dragoon]

2 hours ago, daggers said:

Ahem...

 

Apologies daggers! 

Should read all post before answering!

 

Chris

[Matlock1418]

13 minutes ago, alf mcm said:

Chaplains in Britain were sometimes attached to Military Hospitals, and their duties may have extended to local Auxiliary Hospitals. I googled hospitals at Leominster and came up with the Hampton Court Auxiliary Hospital. I then checked Findmypast for Hampton Court Hospital and came up with https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000727%2f19180921%2f111  an article on 21^st September 1918 entitled ‘Pound Day Record’. The article above it ‘Floral Aeroplane as Tribute of Sympathy’ was more interesting. It mentions a funeral held in Esher Church by Rev. J.K. Floyer. Could this be Rev. J.Boyer after he left the Army?

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

 

 

F - Now there is a thought for an alternative name

Must have a look

 

Had been thinking about hospitals but mainly Kimnel Park as place of death but was sceptical as to whether the padre would have travelled or left it to the local incumbent.

Hmm...

9 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

Apologies daggers! 

Should read all post before answering!

 

Chris

 

No problem - gave me another opportunity to get my query to top of the pile!

Oops - there's me, 'Matlock' jumping in too!

Don't think 'daggers' was too upset.

Still - back to the top of the pile :-)  :-)  :-)

Edited 29 May , 2018 by Matlock1418
correction

[daggers]

Not at all upset, I’ve done it myself.

D

[keithmroberts]

54 minutes ago, alf mcm said:

It mentions a funeral held in Esher Church by Rev. J.K. Floyer. Could this be Rev. J.Boyer after he left the Army?

Sorry no. Rev J K Floyer was never a chaplain to the forces, temporary or otherwise. (Source Crockfords's Clerical Directory 1923.

 

Keith

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, keithmroberts said:

Sorry no. Rev J K Floyer was never a chaplain to the forces, temporary or otherwise. (Source Crockfords's Clerical Directory 1923.

 

Keith

 

Keith,

Thanks, was coming to the same conclusion myself but for different reasons - couldn't find a LG or other military record, though was perhaps Librarian at Worcester around 1901 I think - I think!  Close but not close enough.

Still looking

[alf mcm]

  This article in the Surrey Advertiser, 8th December 1917,'Rev. H.J. Hensman'  https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000727%2f19171208%2f245  shows that J.K. Floyer was appointed officiating minister at Royal Engineers at Esher. Although not officially a Chaplain to the Forces, he could probably be misunderstood as being one.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[keithfazzani]

Nowadays if a minister has no official role in the place, vicar, curate, rector etc at a funeral (or marriage, or a baptism) then he (or she) would be described in the official register as "Officiating Minister". I would assume that if the same was the case at the time of this burial if Rev Boyan held no official role he would have been thus described. It would seem likely that he would have been asked and thus would have described himself as Chaplain to the Forces. Of course if he was an officiating minister at a barracks he may well have described himself thus without actually holding "rank". All pure supposition and thinking out loud. 

[keithmroberts]

Alf

  Floyer to Boyan is one heck of a jump. I can see the RE connection for Floyer but we are talking about a man who died in the Chester Royal Infirmary, and was buried in Leominster. Rev Floyer was the Rector of Esher which is about 150 miles from Leominster. It seems most unlikely that you could combine a clearly inaccurate description of his role, with a considerable misspelling of his name.

 

I found another religious Boyan, Dom Bernard Boyan OSB, a Benedictine, who if related would suggest that there would be a Catholic link. The other Boyan that I found at Ampleforth a catholic college in the 1939 register might support that also.

 

HOWEVER

 

I have downloaded the long number index from the National Archives in search of an officers  record of a file for any sort of Boyan, and can't find one which raises the prospect of an incorrectly entered name somewhat.

 

Stuck.

 

[alf mcm]

Keith,

   I seem to have got myself somewhat confused. I put it down to a senior moment, and a very poor grasp of English geography! This is certainly a puzzle.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[nigelcave]

The Archbishop of Westminster was the man responsible for RC Chaplains until October 1917, when William Keatinge MC (already a Chaplain First Class) became the first Ordinary to the Forces (tho' Westminster remained responsible for the Royal Navy for another thirty years or so). The Bishop to the Forces came many years later (this is an important distinction, as this in effect made the Armed Forces into a diocese and there is a Chancellery and so forth). Two options - you could try the Catholic Year Book for your man (more or less the RC equivalent of Crockfords); or you could try the archives of the Archdiocese. One other thing to bear in mind is that the military side rarely makes reference as to whether a priest was a secular (i.e. under the responsibility of a diocesan bishop) or a religious (i.e. belonged to a religious congregation, such as the Benedictines or Jesuits). A high proportion of RC chaplains came from religious orders.

 

An Ordinary is a Canon Law term and relates to his authority - for example, major superiors of religious orders in a country are considered ordinaries but do not have the fulness of the powers of a bishop (particularly ordination); on the other hand, mitred abbots can ordain (but, so far as I know, only members of their monastic communities). 

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, nigelcave said:

you could try the Catholic Year Book for your man (more or less the RC equivalent of Crockfords);

 

Nigel and others - Thanks for your other religious structure observations too.  Made my head spin!

I am obviously not well versed in this subject (military or civilian) !!!

Re: above - Is this the same as The Catholic Who's Who and Yearbook? [seen various years of these up for sale]

Where might such yearbooks be found, and how accessed? [without much cash expenditure for what is very likely to be a one-off - I'm certainly out of my depth and begining to/definitely know my place on this subject]

Anyone got one / any years around 1918 that can help me by browsing please?