Bringing home a rusty rifle

[4thGordons]

1 hour ago, loganshort said:

the photograph posted by gardener bill shows an extremely decayed rusty bit of metal which once was a rifle. We are not talking here about slightly rusted metal that can be cleaned up with a brillo pad but extreme corrosion eating through the metal. i have a couple of rifles in this condition and continue spraying them with oil, you can see through the rust and i am quite confident that i am in more danger of contracting tetanus than from anything exploding within the rusty remnants of what used to be a weapon. anything in a better condition than this should possibly be deactivated professionaly.

The trouble is - whether it appears reasonable or not, or whether it appears common sense or not - it is not your, or my, or anyone else on the forum's opinion that counts. It is the particular law enforcement officers involved and the CPS view and ultimately the court's interpretation of the law. If it was manufactured as a firearm, legally it may be interpreted as a firearm until it has been officially rendered a non-firearm (deactivated and certified as such)

I would suggest very few people on the forum are in a position to give definitive legal advice (and if they are they are unlikely to do so for free in a public forum!), it is not the role of the forum (and it creates a potential liability - see note about ordnance safety ) - so to do.  Firearms legislation is byzantine and sometimes contradictory and sometimes seems to be unreasonable -- nonetheless -- none of that will help if you are the one caught in the circumstances.

I would not attempt to import such an item into the UK and I would be reasonably circumspect about purchasing one IN the UK.

 

Clearly people's tolerance on these matter will differ but I would always seek formal legal advice. Firearms offences typically carry fairly stiff penalties.

Chris

[Marco]

Gardener, I can get you one if you are in France. You bring it to UK customs, declare it and let us know what happens. We then can split the responders in this topic up in 'wrong' and 'right'.

 

Thank you.

[keithmroberts]

Caution all please.

 

Here is a link to what I take to be the current the Home Office Guidance.  https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/518193/Guidance_on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_April_2016_v20.pdf

 

That guidance has no weight in Belgium or France as the countries have their own laws and processes. Personal advice given here by members is just that, and while some have considerable experience, anyone taking any action in connection with this subject must take their own personal responsibility.

 

 

Keith Roberts

[trenchtrotter]

Simply don’t. That’s my final word. 

[trenchtrotter]

Well nearly final word. This is what that rusty piece could look like. This one found three years ago. Full of shiny live rounds. Left with museum

in France who cleaned it up in less than 24 hours. So again don’t bring them back.

Edited 29 June , 2018 by trenchtrotter

[healdav]

On 29/06/2018 at 00:38, loganshort said:

of course i would not recommend touching ordinance! better dealt with by the professionals but there are bootfairs at which farmers sell rusty curios they have ploughed up instead of selling them to scrap metal merchants. And what about the Albert museum shop at which I have bought various items in the past? Most items of which have been found in the fields, As for rifles the photograph posted by gardener bill shows an extremely decayed rusty bit of metal which once was a rifle. We are not talking here about slightly rusted metal that can be cleaned up with a brillo pad but extreme corrosion eating through the metal. i have a couple of rifles in this condition and continue spraying them with oil, you can see through the rust and i am quite confident that i am in more danger of contracting tetanus than from anything exploding within the rusty remnants of what used to be a weapon. anything in a better condition than this should possibly be deactivated professionaly. By the way, i have not commercial interest in the Albert museum and its shop but its great!

Theoretically, ANY item taken from a battlefield in France lays you open to large fines or prison. In practice, they may turn a blind eye to the odd cartridge or piece of barbed wire, et. But otherwise don't risk it.

Buying something at recognised fair is something else, but I would get some sort of certificate from the seller (or receipt), before taking it. They may decide to be kind, but the record of the courts over taking things is not to be experienced if you want to live peacefully. The maximum 10,000 euros and six months is given once or twice every year, and lesser penalties quite regularly.

I pick up the odd cartridge when at Verdun, but I wouldn't take anything else,even if it is a mass of rust. They won't take a plea of being British.

Edited 1 July , 2018 by healdav

[loganshort]

On 29/06/2018 at 07:06, keithmroberts said:

Caution all please.

 

Here is a link to what I take to be the current the Home Office Guidance.  https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/518193/Guidance_on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_April_2016_v20.pdf

 

That guidance has no weight in Belgium or France as the countries have their own laws and processes. Personal advice given here by members is just that, and while some have considerable experience, anyone taking any action in connection with this subject must take their own personal responsibility.

 

 

Keith Roberts

Thanks Keith. I would certainly not assume to give any sort of legal guidance to any other member of the forum about firearms and most certainly not anything to do with foreign laws! I would also not pick up any kind of ordinance from a field! However, something bought legally in France (eg from Albert Museum) and with supporting paperwork would go a long way towards a defence. Let the buyer beware! And, in particular, let him or her be safe!  In the document on British licensing law note the very first  chapter 1.1:

3

"Guide on Firearms Licensing Law

1.1. What is meant by the term ‘firearm’?

‘Firearm’ means a lethal barrelled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other

missile can be discharged."

..".......a firearm which has been de-activated in some other manner may also have ceased

to be a firearm within the meaning of the 1968 Act. For example, guns held by museums

that were recovered from wrecked ships and aircraft may be corroded to the point that

they cannot be fired."

My rusty relics cannot in any way under British Law be termed "Firearms" so I am confident in possessing them (The magazines are empty by the way) The spike on my picklehaube helmet is more dangerous. Never place your picklehaube on a chair!

Of course another option is to purchase a legally deactivated firearm with certificate or get yourself your own firearms license to own a firing gun (but that involves a complicated and expensive system of storage, inspections. etc.) And I suppose another option is to go to the splendid Yorkshire -  Armouries museum and look at them! (Time I paid it another visit)

(I totally absolve this forum from any legal action taken against it with regards to my own comments, views and beliefs posted on here which are personal to myself only and I take 100% full responsibility for said comments, views and beliefs.)

[Dave66]

Never had the opportunity to go over to the battlefields as yet as family has always come first, now they've grown and virtually fledged the nest it's certainly on the to do list. When I do it will be a case of looking and not touching.

I have to say, there's something quite fascinating digging around and unearthing a little piece of history, but quite happy to leave it where it is as far as amunition and firearms are concerned, really not worth the  hassle nowadays.

 

Dave.

[Gardenerbill]

As the original poster, I would like to make it clear that I don't have a rusty rifle and I am not planing to go and pick one up from a battlefield, my intention was to start a debate on the legality of doing so. As ever I am amazed at the depth of knowledge of forum members and would like to thank all the contributors to this topic for their information. What appeared to be a grey area, now appears clear to me, if you pick up one of these battlefield relics, put it in the boot of your car and bring it back to the UK you may get away with it but you are breaking French and British laws.

[Guest]

  Perhaps it is  time to ask the French and Belgian Consulates for guidance on this matter????    The French Consulate (London, not Scunthorpe) refers enquirers to a notice from France Douanes-  these highlight that militaria,in general, cannot be transported via the Channel Tunnel. It does not make clear what the regulations are for other methods of travel.    Items banned are:

 

 

*l Obus, douilles d’obus, morceaux d’obus l Munitions l Grenades l Baïonnettes et autres armes blanches (sabres, épées...) l Armes à feu, y compris les armes historiques et de collection

Edited 1 July , 2018 by Guest