Bringing home a rusty rifle

[Gardenerbill]

First apologies to @trenchtrotter for appropriating an image from his Somme trip.

 

 

If one was to either find or purchase a rusty rifle such as this in France:

 

1. Would you be allowed to bring back it to the UK?

2. Although it is clearly incapable of being fired, would you still have to have it de-activated?

 

 

 

 

Edited 14 May , 2018 by Gardenerbill

[peregrinvs]

Unfortunately these things are in a bit of legal grey area, so good questions...

 

Personally I would buy one that had already made it into the UK. You regularly see them for sale at militaria fairs. 

 

(Which would seem to imply that HMRC do allow their import)

[Gardenerbill]

1 hour ago, peregrinvs said:

Unfortunately these things are in a bit of legal grey area, so good questions...

 

Personally I would buy one that had already made it into the UK. You regularly see them for sale at militaria fairs. 

 

(Which would seem to imply that HMRC do allow their import)

 

Hi Peregrinvs,

Err... I must confess I have never been to a Militaria fair. Do you know what sort of prices these items cost?

[MikeyH]

There was a relic WW1 Lee-Enfield at a recent Birmingham Fair, at the Motor Cycle Museum.  This had the majority of the woodwork still present,

the vendor was asking in the region of £160.  A number, four I think similar relics were entered in an auction last year and had to be withdrawn and presumably

submitted for de-activation, as the actions still worked.

 

Mike.

 

 

Edited 14 May , 2018 by MikeyH

[peregrinvs]

On 14/05/2018 at 15:31, Gardenerbill said:

 

Hi Peregrinvs,

Err... I must confess I have never been to a Militaria fair. Do you know what sort of prices these items cost?

Maybe circa £50-75 for one in similar condition to the one shown?

 

The less rotted and complete they are, the higher the likely value. But as alluded to; the less rotted, the more likely to be legally iffy.

[Marco]

All the ones I saw laying around in-situ and which still had their magazine had live rounds in the magazine. That might get you in trouble as well.

Edited 16 May , 2018 by Marco

[trenchtrotter]

I don't bring them back. I give them away in France. It is a grey area and one I don't want to fall foul of on the law. Apart from UK you may get in trouble with the French. And point above re live rounds is valid.

[alastaircox]

Pretty sure that there are numerous laws about not removing items from battlefields in France, all of which have been declared historic sites. 

 

 

[loganshort]

But if that were true then nearly all farmers would be in prison for taking items from their fields and leaving them at the side of road/by gates for collection or taking items to French "bootfairs" to sell! There are, however, laws about metal detecting!

[Stoppage Drill]

You would be able to bring that rifle back to UK.

It would be deemed to be effectively deactivated by virtue of its condition.

 

See para 2.20 of this link.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/firearms-law-guidance-to-the-police-2012

[peregrinvs]

16 hours ago, Stoppage Drill said:

You would be able to bring that rifle back to UK.

It would be deemed to be effectively deactivated by virtue of its condition.

 

See para 2.20 of this link.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/firearms-law-guidance-to-the-police-2012

Maybe. Maybe not. As it states, it would be ultimately up to a court decide whether a relic gun was sufficiently rotted as to be no longer legally a firearm. You wouldn't presume that a live firearm was deactivated because someone filled it's innards with epoxy resin - likewise a gun seized up with rust.I'd guess it would come down to whether the pressure bearing components were still structurally sound underneath the rust.

 

Then we come to section 2.21 on transferring so-called 'defectively deactivated' firearms. Would a "deactivated in some other manner" gun fall under this? No, I don't know either. As I said, these things are in a bit of legal grey area.  

[trenchtrotter]

On 22/06/2018 at 17:11, Stoppage Drill said:

You would be able to bring that rifle back to UK.

It would be deemed to be effectively deactivated by virtue of its condition.

 

See para 2.20 of this link.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/firearms-law-guidance-to-the-police-2012

 

And the live rounds in mag and chamber???

[Guest]

On 22/06/2018 at 17:11, Stoppage Drill said:

You would be able to bring that rifle back to UK.

It would be deemed to be effectively deactivated by virtue of its condition.

 

See para 2.20 of this link.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/firearms-law-guidance-to-the-police-2012

 

    SD- reference has been made to the laws at the French end. Would you happen to know, broadly, what the state of French law is with regard to  retired weapons?  Aside from the point about battlefields being protected, one has to get a rusty weapon back across France in the first place.-  I think we may be concentrating far too much on the British end, rather than the beginning of the journey:

1)  To whom would the relic belong- say, a Lee-Enfield .  British Army? French Government? French military?  Landowner?  Everyone so far seems to be assuming "finders keepers" but i cannot imagine (20* years of a French wife) that anything in France is that administratively straightforward

 

2)  Are there any requirements in France (and Belgium) to report the finding of a weapon or bomb of any sort??  My memory is that the answer is "Yes"- my late father-in-law (Former French Marie officer in Algeria) spotted a dumped Luger pistol by the roadside while  driving. Straight to the Gendarmerie Nationale.

 

3) My memory is that the French are also keen on paperwork for transit. Also, that licence requirements for firearms in France vary by department/region. eg My father-in-law moved from Sedan (hilly) in the Ardennes to Troyes in the Aube-rolling open countryside and much flatter-his firearms licences were revised and he could not so easily use a rifle for hunting,as the bullet might carry too far.

 

   If it you have any specialist knowledge on this could you pop up a few hints and pointers-I am pretty sure that just picking stuff up and travelling back contravenes any number of French regulations.  And we wouildn't want to upset our Gallic neighbours would we?  

 

 

Edited 25 June , 2018 by Guest

[healdav]

On 19/06/2018 at 17:29, loganshort said:

But if that were true then nearly all farmers would be in prison for taking items from their fields and leaving them at the side of road/by gates for collection or taking items to French "bootfairs" to sell! There are, however, laws about metal detecting!

Taking ANY item from a battlefield in France is illegal. Farmers are within the law as they are asked to move UXB to the roadside for collection. Most don't now, they stack them in the farmyard, as idiots take them away to  sell to other idiots at fairs, or to try and defuse and unload them. Usually, they have a short career.

A friend of mine's son once found a machine gun on a battlefield and their guide hurried them away as fast as he could and wouldn't even let the boy touch it.

Of course, it's up to you, but if you don't have 10,000 euros and six months to spare as a guest of the French, then leave them.

 

[Stoppage Drill]

 

 

   If it you have any specialist knowledge on this could you pop up a few hints and pointers-I am pretty sure that just picking stuff up and travelling back contravenes any number of French regulations.  And we wouildn't want to upset our Gallic neighbours would we?  

 

 

Good point. I think Healdav's answer is sufficient.

 

I have a rusted old SMLE similar in condition to the OP photo, which I was given in the 60's by the then caretaker at Newfoundland Park. At that time they were glad to see visitors. 

 

Should I hand myself in to les flics and risk interrogation at the hands of the local Maigret ?

[Howard]

Years ago (in the days when one could go up the Ulster Tower), they were selling them there. We have a German rifle from the Ulster Tower "shop", very rusted and a bit bent. If anyone wants it, it is free for persoanl collection from Godalming near Guildford. It was found in Dantzig Alley.

We also have a visibly empty shell from the same place, both no longer required.

 

Howard

 

[trenchtrotter]

Healdav is correct. By the letter of the law. I do remove such funds and as stated give them to a local museum where they are displayed. 

 

I dont think hunk you will run into a 10,000 Euro fine for removing a shrapnel ball or button however. 

 

As for ordnance if you take that you deserve everything they throw at you.

 

Re tying to bring a rifle back.....DONT. 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Stoppage Drill said:

Should I hand myself in to les flics and risk interrogation at the hands of the local Maigret ?

 

     You should be alright.  

 

[IanA]

2 hours ago, trenchtrotter said:

I do remove such funds

Shhh...the auditors may be listening. 

 

[Shiny]

I'm still confused about the shops in Ypres near the Menin Gate that have boxes and boxes of shrapnel and fuses. If it's illegal how can they be allowed to sell it?

 

I was thinking about getting a fuse later in the year, are we saying I shouldn't because it's illegal to bring home?

 

Michael 

[trenchtrotter]

What shops choose to sell is their business. Belgium laws of course differ to French. If you travel via Eurostar it’s a big no no. If yo buy then wrap it well and place in luggage. 99.9 % you will be fine with a fuze. I know people who have sailed thro and also those stopped and quizzed. It’s a choice you make. What are you particularly looking to buy?

[chaz]

3 hours ago, Howard said:

Years ago (in the days when one could go up the Ulster Tower), they were selling them there. We have a German rifle from the Ulster Tower "shop", very rusted and a bit bent. If anyone wants it, it is free for persoanl collection from Godalming near Guildford. It was found in Dantzig Alley.

We also have a visibly empty shell from the same place, both no longer required.

 

Howard

 

Howard.

I would be interested in the offer,

unfortunately... to pass you  I would be on my way back to France at the weekend. wonder what they would say if I was caught re importing them???

could I argue we took them over in the first place, bearing in mind my signature and my 5 great uncles that remain there!!

[KONDOA]

Our mauser found near Danzig Alley in the 70's was a very poor specimen until I chucked it in the paraffin bath at the power plant I worked at. The screws for the magazine undid like new and the bullets soon lost their mettle when pulled in the vice. The barrel was straightened and bore cleaned. A light blow over in the grit blaster revealed the markings. I don't think anyone would bother much if you brought Big Bertha home after 100 years.

2 minutes ago, chaz said:

Howard.

I would be interested in the offer,

unfortunately... to pass you  I would be on my way back to France at the weekend. wonder what they would say if I was caught re importing them???

could I argue we took them over in the first place, bearing in mind my signature and my 5 great uncles that remain there!!

Nice mauser

[Howard]

50 minutes ago, chaz said:

Howard.

I would be interested in the offer,

unfortunately... to pass you  I would be on my way back to France at the weekend. wonder what they would say if I was caught re importing them???

could I argue we took them over in the first place, bearing in mind my signature and my 5 great uncles that remain there!!

There is no rush. Better to pass them onto someone interested than putting them in the recycling.

 

Howard

[loganshort]

On 25/06/2018 at 08:26, healdav said:

Taking ANY item from a battlefield in France is illegal. Farmers are within the law as they are asked to move UXB to the roadside for collection. Most don't now, they stack them in the farmyard, as idiots take them away to  sell to other idiots at fairs, or to try and defuse and unload them. Usually, they have a short career.

A friend of mine's son once found a machine gun on a battlefield and their guide hurried them away as fast as he could and wouldn't even let the boy touch it.

Of course, it's up to you, but if you don't have 10,000 euros and six months to spare as a guest of the French, then leave them.

 

of course i would not recommend touching ordinance! better dealt with by the professionals but there are bootfairs at which farmers sell rusty curios they have ploughed up instead of selling them to scrap metal merchants. And what about the Albert museum shop at which I have bought various items in the past? Most items of which have been found in the fields, As for rifles the photograph posted by gardener bill shows an extremely decayed rusty bit of metal which once was a rifle. We are not talking here about slightly rusted metal that can be cleaned up with a brillo pad but extreme corrosion eating through the metal. i have a couple of rifles in this condition and continue spraying them with oil, you can see through the rust and i am quite confident that i am in more danger of contracting tetanus than from anything exploding within the rusty remnants of what used to be a weapon. anything in a better condition than this should possibly be deactivated professionaly. By the way, i have not commercial interest in the Albert museum and its shop but its great!