Photo Want Pls: Pte Frederick Cosham, 16th Lancs Fusiliers.

[mike gunnill]

Seeking a photograph please of Pte Frederick George Cosham 1893-1914.  Born in Sundridge, Kent lived in Paddock Wood, Tunbridge Wells and Dover.  In Dover, he worked as a baker for owners Frederick and Catherine Smith of 36 Longfield Road, Dover. Also in the same house was a Alice Smith, the sister of Fred Smith - who married a few years later.  I think he was in Dover from 1910 until 1914, when he enlisted in Kitchener's New Army, 22/8/1914.  He found his way into the 16th Battalion of the Lancashire Fusiliers.  On November 4th 1914 he was killed on the east bank of the Sambre-Oise Canal.  His parents were not told of his death until April 18th 1915.

 

His parents, were Joseph, a retired baker and Emma Francis Cosham lived in Tunbridge Wells where they also has a business, as well as a business The Acorn Restaurant in Paddock Wood. F.G. Cosham is listed on the Paddock Wood War Memorial and he is buried in the Ors British Cemetery close to where he died.  His army number is 65101.

 

I have most of his army record. I have tried relations of the Cosham family without success.  I assume he had a photograph taken before leaving Dover for his army training.

 

Grateful for any help and very grateful for a new pair of eyes-perhaps I have missed something in my picture research.

 

It is a picture I am looking for, thank you very much.

 

Michael

[BillyH]

Have you tried the local newspapers from the time of his death until a month after his parents were told  of his death?

This is ALWAYS the best bet.

(Note : he was killed in 1918 not 1914)

 

BillyH.

Edited 18 April , 2018 by BillyH

[Coldstreamer]

why do you assume he had a photo taken ?

[mike gunnill]

2 hours ago, BillyH said:

Have you tried the local newspapers from the time of his death until a month after his parents were told  of his death?

This is ALWAYS the best bet.

(Note : he was killed in 1918 not 1914)

 

BillyH.

I have tried the local newspapers. There are mentions of him missing and later when this was changed to killed. No photograph used however.  Thank you typo-mistake with the death confirmed as 4/11/1918.

 

Thank you 

[mike gunnill]

1 hour ago, Coldstreamer said:

why do you assume he had a photo taken ?

 

Because I just assumed he did. He was part of a large family and Dover at that time had a large number of photographic studios.

 

Do you not agree?

 

 

[Coldstreamer]

It's an assumption so I can't agree or disagree as nothing to base it upon . 

 

Are there any  photos in the paper ? Not all had them.

 

It could be the family didn't have one to provide.  

[mike gunnill]

<It could be the family didn't have one to provide.>

 

is that an assumption Coldstreamer ?

 

 

I will continue looking for an image, I don't want to give up on this yet-although I may have to.

 

Thx

[Coldstreamer]

it is yes

don't give up. I'm constantly revising my research and re checking . New material appears all the time.

I've tried to find a decent pic of a major general Sutton . He came from wealthy family, commanded a Coldstream battalion for several years, yet no decent picture.

Another, got a nice pic of his dog when it won a prize at Crufts but not him!

[RussT]

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Edited 20 April , 2018 by RussT

[mike gunnill]

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Edited 24 April , 2018 by mike gunnill

[RussT]

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[RussT]

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[RussT]

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[mike gunnill]

On 18/04/2018 at 22:19, RussT said:

I also note that his £19 war gratuity predicts an enlistment date of August 1915, which is pretty consistent with the date of July 1915 when his ASC service number would have been allotted.

 

Russ

 

Edited 24 April , 2018 by mike gunnill
RussT

[RussT]

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Edited 20 April , 2018 by RussT

[ss002d6252]

I've had a look at the war gratuity and £19 was paid as a Type 2 gratuity (so paid gross)

It looks like has an acting lance corporal when he died so he received only the basic £5 for 12 months and then £14 for 28 months - so 40 months qualifying service.

Craig

[RussT]

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Edited 20 April , 2018 by RussT

[RussT]

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[RussT]

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[ss002d6252]

15 minutes ago, RussT said:

Craig

 

His date of death was 04/11/1918.

 

Can you re-check your calculation.

Ah - apologies Russ. Misread the date as 11 April 1918 ! (I've deleted my earlier post)

Enlistment would tie up with the month from 5 July 1915.

If he had earlier service then it wasn't linked in to his service period for the war gratuity that was paid out (in that case it would have to either been missed off in error or non qualifying for some reason)

Craig

Edited 19 April , 2018 by ss002d6252

[mike gunnill]

<<What source of information/record do you have that confirms he enlisted on 22/08/1914 and to what unit did he enlist on that date?>>

 

RussT: That is the day, he walked from his bakery into Dover town centre. That is the day they had a big recruitment "bash"  with speeches at the Maison Dieu Hall, asking the young men of the area to sign up for Kitcheners New Army. He signed that afternoon. Then told his mother, Emma the following day. I have him with the 16th Lancashire Fusiliers soon after they were formed in November 1914. I would be interested in what detail you have!

 

 

 

Mike

[alantwo]

Mike

I hope you don’t mind my interjection at this point but it may be helpful for an outsider to the thread to make an observation or two. I have more than a passing interest in the 16^th Lancashire Fusiliers as my Great Uncle served with them from around the end of 1917 and I was interested in your original post seeking a photograph, as this may well have turned up a photograph of mine. Two of my uncles also served with the Regiment in the Second World War.

The man you are looking for Frederick George Cosham, 65101, has a Medal Index Card (MIC) which indicates he also served with the Army Service Corps with the Regimental Number of S4-122921. The card indicates that he received the Victory Medal and the British War Medal, but not the 1914-15 Star. This means he did not serve overseas until on or after 1^st January 1916.

I will stand corrected but the prefix ‘S’ before a number suggests a specialisation and given that you have indicated that he was a baker it would seem reasonable that he had this designation.

Within the Service Medal and Award Rolls he his listed similarly as ASC and 16^th Lancashire Fusiliers. His two medals were issued with other individuals of the Lancashire Fusiliers and it is my understanding that this would have been because it was the last unit he served with, therefore he was firstly with the ASC.

There is a book which you may be aware of by Michael Stedman which I have previously mentioned on the Forum, ‘Salford Pals 15^th-16^th-19^th and 20^th Battalions Lancashire Fusiliers. A History of the Salford Brigade’; it is published by Pen and Sword. In appendix II, Stedman has the Battalion Rolls of all the Officers, NCOs and men for each Battalion, for each Company and Platoon, even the bugle band. For the 16^th (Service) Battalion, the numbers are in the region of 11xxx to 12xxx although for some reason ‘E’ Company, ‘XX’ Platoon is almost exclusively 15xxx. As Russ has indicated there are no numbers in the region of 65xxx in 1915.

Stedman also indicates that the 2^nd Salford Pals was raised on 5^th November 1914 and began their departure from the area on Thursday 11^th February 1915.

The Register of Soldiers Effects 1901-1929, is held by the National Army Museum but can be viewed on Ancestry. There appears to be two entries for Frederick, both of which indicate that he was, at the time of his death, an acting Lance Corporal with the 16^th Battalion. The sole legatee appears to be ‘Emma F’ (his mother?) and the amount includes a War Gratuity which was a payment for service, perhaps payment for time served would be another way of putting it. Craig (ss002d6252) who is primarily interested in the Durham Light infantry, and if I may say has an excellent web-site to which it is dedicated, realised that this correlation between the time served and payment could be worked in reverse. He has a simple calculator which he has made available to everyone, that allows the financial amount to be converted into months served, in this case 40 months. Working back from the date of death it easily provides a date of enlistment which he has given above.

Russ has helpfully sampled service records of the Lancashire Fusiliers and the example given indicated an ex-ASC man with a similar number transferred in May 1918. This is not always proof of another’s situation, but it can act as a guide.

Although The Commonwealth War Graves Commission has the service number 85101, it would appear that it is the same man, Lance Corporal F.G. Cosham 16^th Battalion, who died on 4^th November 1918. The War Diary for the day states that the Battalion suffered serious casualties and whilst the men are not listed, the officers are. There is a short account of the action on 4^th November in Stedman’s book which highlights that a Victoria Cross was awarded to Sergeant James Clarke of the 15^th Lancashire Fusiliers.

It appears presently what we have is that because 65101 Private Cosham is not listed in the 16^th Lancashire Fusilier Battalion Rolls of 1915 when they left for overseas, he was not with that unit at that time. The number is also too high for that period. Based upon Craig’s calculation he enlisted sometime in July 1915 and the MIC and Rolls indicate he was firstly sent to the ASC, possibly as a specialist baker, perhaps to one of the many Field Bakery Companies. The MIC also confirms he did not go overseas until on or after 1^st January 1916 but when he did, it may possibly have been with the ASC. He did not therefore leave with the 16^th Lancashire Fusiliers in February 1915. As Russ has indicated he probably transferred to the 16^th Lancashire Fusiliers after May 1918 with whom he was killed in November of the same year. The Soldier’s Effects calculation also helps to confirm that he did not enlist in 1914 otherwise the War Gratuity would have been a higher sum.

In your latest post you indicate that you have Frederick with 16^th Lancashire Fusiliers in November 1914 and I believe Russ’ point is merely, what documentary evidence is there of this. Sometimes a child’s birth certificate can detail the father’s battalion and regiment, an Absent Voters List may also do the same.

These are simply my thoughts and any mistakes are mine, always happy to be corrected.

Alan

[mike gunnill]

Thank you AlanTwo:  That does help. On my part I will have to revisit a relation who gave me most of the information. Like you I am always happy to be corrected and if you excuse the pun, this is a research nightmare at times.

 

I am grateful for your time and trouble and your post does assist. Thank you

 

Michael

[mike gunnill]

I would like to thank especially alantwo during my search for Frederick Cosham. I am grateful for your postings after reading the last,  I returned to my two original sources and questioned them again. It would appear I was lead astray a little by their comments and dates. It seems they were telling me, what I wanted to hear rather than the truth.  Now I hold some of the facts and detail on Cosham I can start again.

 

It's a funny old world, this researching game and I am just grateful that more experienced people than I, posted here to put me back on the straight and narrow.

 

Thank you

Edited 24 April , 2018 by mike gunnill
second thoughts

[mike gunnill]

22 hours ago, alantwo said:

<<Mike

I hope you don’t mind my interjection at this point but it may be helpful for an outsider to the thread to make an observation or two. I have more than a passing interest in the 16^th Lancashire Fusiliers as my Great Uncle served with them from around the end of 1917 and I was interested in your original post seeking a photograph, as this may well have turned up a photograph of mine. Two of my uncles also served with the Regiment in the Second World War.>>

 

Alantwo With regard your opening remarks. Did you ever find a photograph of your uncles?  I am now wondered where to start looking for my man Frederick Cosham?

I would be grateful for your guidance   Thank you

 

22 hours ago, alantwo said: