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trajan

Peabody-Martini conversions in WW1

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4thGordons

 

13 hours ago, assafx said:

what i do find curious is the conversion of the gun that ZUluwar posted to a shotgun. was it made by the army or is it a local farmer conversion?

 

Assaf

 

 

May or may not be relevant, but the Egyptian police used 14g Martini-action (Greener converted) shotguns for guard/riot weapons.

 

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IMG_1059.thumb.jpg.2fe93a87b085a31926ddbca5051c10e2.jpg

 

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assafx

wow now i'm really curious. any knowledge of conversion or such an action with the Ottomans?

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4thGordons
2 minutes ago, assafx said:

wow now i'm really curious. any knowledge of conversion or such an action with the Ottomans?

 

No Sorry I have no idea- but smooth bored Martini action shotguns are fairly common (sometimes with a relatively crude sight braised to the barrel) many appear to have come out of India/NWF/Afghanistan in the last decade.

Chris

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trajan

Thought I'd bring this up to date with a photograph from an Ottoman magazine from WW1... These guys are wearing the BASHLIK, I think, and so the photograph was taken after 1916 when this headgear was introduced - see http://www.militarysunhelmets.com/2012/ottoman-turkish-sun-helmets-the-kabalak

 

Note the PM rifles are converted ones - easy to see from the location of the rear sight and the foresight, and note the little lug in front of the foresight so that a socket bayonet can be fitted - and lookee here what the chappie on the front right has, a P-M socket bayoyet in a scabbard!

 

 

751c.jpg

Edited by trajan

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trajan

This is from a post by JPS on Gunboards Forum - a convert with the little lug in front of the foresight to affix a socket bayonet if required AND a tenon for the shortened and straightened Yataghan introduced with the converted rifles.

 

 

gwf.jpg

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trajan

O now have a date for the photograph in post 29 - the magazine it was the frontispiece for was published "Mayıs 1332...a Mali date - May 1916. ... a Hicri-Kameri one and is again May 1916.

 

This ties in with the Bashlikler they are weraing on their head, which was introduced 1916...

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trajan

Just out of interest, this is another WW1 postcard provided by one of my students showing an un-converted P-M Rifle with a fixed socket bayonet at the funeral of General Goltz. Note that the guard on the right has a Turkish model Mauser of some kind.

 

 

Goltz burial.jpg

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trajan

An update on the Turkish P-M rifles - my article on these has just appeared in Anatolica  44 (2018), 229-255. Once the usual embargo has been lifted I'll be happy to send out off-prints to those interested.

 

Too late for inclusion in that article, sadly, was the discovery of a piece in The New York Herald, 13th August 1877, p. 3, col. 2, on-line at  http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030313/1877-08-13/ed-1/seq-3/, that the Providence Tool Company referred to those made for Turkey as Martini-Henry rifles (which of course they were - well Martini-Henry Mk.I's!), even though the Turkish-style versions sold in the US of A were advertised as Peabody-Martini's, the name by which they were referred to in contemporary literature regarding the 1877-1878 War and even as late as 1916... 

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assafx

congarts on the publication.

count me interested and i hioe the motza excavation helped.

 

 

Assaf

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trajan

Thanks Assaf, the Motza excavation find does indeed feature in the article with full acknowledgement! As soon as the 'free' author (and so not embargoed) off-prints arrive I'll send ypu a copy!

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assafx

This is perfect and i hope the timing will be too. i need to write about motza for a conference on modern archeology and i can use your article as reference !

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trajan

Title is: "The 'Aynali Martini': the Ottoman Army's First Modern Rifle', and the find is referred to on p.252 with your photograph. When I can I'll scan my copy.

 

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assafx

I was able, through a friend in Tel Aviv university, to get a hold of your paper. i'm so far in page 251 and enjoying it !

 

i have  a question regarding the numbers of the converted rifles. when i added them all (all the numbers you mention in page 251) i reached 460,034.

this number is far greater than the surviving number of the russo turkish war (around 350,000 as shown on page 247).

am i wrong or is there a chance that the turkish actually converted the locally made ones?

 

Assaf

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trajan
14 minutes ago, assafx said:

I was able, through a friend in Tel Aviv university, to get a hold of your paper. i'm so far in page 251 and enjoying it !

 

i have  a question regarding the numbers of the converted rifles. when i added them all (all the numbers you mention in page 251) i reached 460,034.

this number is far greater than the surviving number of the russo turkish war (around 350,000 as shown on page 247).

am i wrong or is there a chance that the turkish actually converted the locally made ones?

 

Hi Assaf - hope Hannukah went well? And Happy New Year to come! Hope it stays quiet in your region...!

 

Well, as my Turkish students would say, "Ama, oof, ya, hocam!", which broadly translated means roughly "Dear respected professor, have I really made a mistake?" Probably... I'll look at it after January 1st.

 

One interesting thing I found after submitting the paper was a reference to these P-M's being referred to regularly in Osmanli sources as Martini-Henry's...It seems that they are P-M's in the USA and other states / regions - one advert I saw recently states that the P-M was the same as the "English Martini-Henry"... Anyway, I am trying to cultivate somebody in the History Department to check that out when they are next in the archives... Oh, and yes, I still haven't received off-prints - when they come one will come your way! The P-M bayonet paper, by the way, is on its way for publication in - I guess - March.

 

All the best, my learned friend!

Julian

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assafx

Hi Julian,

 

Hannukah is one of my favorites and it was great. we are about to go abd have Novi God with my wife's parents.

 

I thought that i sent you the photograph of the P-M bayonet without the watermark. it really bothers me too see it like that in a publication. if you need a clear copy of that photograph for another publication let me know.

 

I took part in an excavation publication that came out 7 months ago. we had a 7.92 mm cartridge case that had an oval strike. i wrote that it was fired from a besa machine gun

 

a french researcher contacted me and corrected me about that mistake. he said it is more likely it is a bz53. why i calked it besa?

because that is what the soldiers back than we called the besa and the

Czechoslovakian machine gun it was based on.

think that this is the same way with the turkish calling it martini henry.

 

i have a demanding baby to attend to so more to come...

 

Assaf

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assafx

BTW do you have any idea about the tools used in turkey to make the clones?

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assafx
On 31/12/2018 at 14:36, trajan said:

Well, as my Turkish students would say, "Ama, oof, ya, hocam!", which broadly translated means roughly "Dear respected professor, have I really made a mistake?" Probably... I'll look at it after January 1st. 

 

 

Julian

 

had a chance for a number check ?

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trajan

No way just yet! Too much course work to do, kids to deal with (modern maths and all!), and an article to get revised and off to its journal... And then an excavation report that's been hanging around for ten years to get out of the way... So, probably in spring???!!! But I haven't forgotten it...

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