Peabody-Martini conversions in WW1

[trajan]

For a research project in hand, which is missing two vital bits of information, I would greatly appreciate it if anyone can supply me with the weight of one of those Peabody-Martini rifles converted in 1912-1915, by shortening to 44.8 inches (114 cm) long overall, and re-chambered also to take the 7.65 X 53 mm standard Mauser cartridge as used in the Turkish Models 1890, 1893, 1903, and 1908. These conversions were the ones used by the 64th regiment at Gallipoli as indicated by the diary of Lt. Mehmed Fasih. 

 

Oh, the other vital bit? The serial number on the latest known dated example of one of these. I know where it is - in the museum at Leeds - and I have sent an enquiry there: but it wouldn't harm if somebody knows it off-hand! (and just for those who desire such arcane data, the Leeds example aside, the latest and so highest published serial I know of is one referenced on GBF, at 119,638 for the year ending March 1913). 

 

Thanks in anticipation!

 

Julian

[N White]

Trajan, you might try emailing Othais over at C&Rsenal.  He has had what appears to he one hanging on the wall behind him for the past few episodes.

[assafx]

Julian,

+1 on this suggestion.

about six months ago, i asked him a few questions, it takes some time for him to reply but he might help you on that.

 

see also if you can ask the IWM for details:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30032387

 

Assaf

 

 

[trajan]

 

 

On 4/4/2018 at 17:52, N White said:

Trajan, you might try emailing Othais over at C&Rsenal.  He has had what appears to he one hanging on the wall behind him for the past few episodes.

 

On 4/4/2018 at 19:06, assafx said:

Julian,

+1 on this suggestion.

about six months ago, i asked him a few questions, it takes some time for him to reply but he might help you on that.

 

see also if you can ask the IWM for details:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30032387

 

Thanks both! I'll try Othais... I thought that the IWM did not answer such detailed questions? They do show one in their files but not much else.

 

In the meantime, the RA at Leeds have given me the data on the example there and I trust that they won't mind me saying that it is dated 1913 and is serialled really high - 144,876. As I understand it OEWG supplied 200,000 barrels/chambers for these conversions, so an amazing survival rate for a rifle first introduced into Ottoman service in 1874. The British Handbook says that examples were still being converted at the rate of 100-150 a day in 1916 - and yes, they were used at Gallipoli!

 

But, I still need the weight...

 

Trajan

[N White]

Worst case scenario, wait till he publishes the episode on it, they always do list the weights.  That said, who knows when that will be, their production queue is (understandably) pretty long. (I sent them my Vergueiro last June, and it came home in February).

[trajan]

15 hours ago, N White said:

Worst case scenario, wait till he publishes the episode on it, they always do list the weights.  That said, who knows when that will be, their production queue is (understandably) pretty long. (I sent them my Vergueiro last June, and it came home in February).

 

On 4/4/2018 at 19:06, assafx said:

Julian,

On 4/4/2018 at 17:52, N White said:

Trajan, you might try emailing Othais over at C&Rsenal.  He has had what appears to he one hanging on the wall behind him for the past few episodes.

+1 on this suggestion.

about six months ago, i asked him a few questions, it takes some time for him to reply but he might help you on that.

 

see also if you can ask the IWM for details:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30032387

 

Well, the gods are clearly compensating for the ineptitude of my older son (5 red points this week at school and no greens...) as an e-mail to the man himself last night resulted in a reply waiting when I woke up this morning, as he 'just happened' to have all three types of M-P to hand! And the weight of the converted type is 9.4 lb... so heavier than the unconverted ones at - officially at least - between 8.5 -8.7 lbs (3.855-3.946 kg). Any thoughts anybody? I am thinking that the extra weight is owing to the same external diameter being used for the barrel but having a smaller bore plus a new reinforced chamber?

 

Oh, and he also linked me to an example, breech number 164,236 (going up from the Leeds one!) on a 1331 conversion = sometime in 1915 - I think! Need to check with the Ottoman historians here but I assume this is a Rumi year date, not an al Hegira one (both systems in use in the Ottoman Empire), and as I know year 1327 Rumi was going strong in 1911, then year 1331 Rumi is 1915 or so. Where IS shipping steel when you need him? He would have an immediate answer...

[trajan]

I should have added... Anyone else want to offer a weight of one of these? It would be nice to see the range!

[assafx]

My guess will be the differences in ammunition, the 7.65 will require metals that can stand higher pressure.

 

according to Ken Elks book, the dates should be Rumi. so ,1331 is 1915-1916.

In my article (Hebrew)  i discussed the conversion process and i suggest that there might have been use of non converted martinis is the Palestine front.

but it is still a guessing game based on a bayonet and a Martini Henri cartridge case and the fact that out of about 500,000 guns only 200, 000 were supposed to be converted.

 

could you ask him if he can check if a Gras cartridge can fit an unconverted PM? i asked him once i'm not sure if here will remember.

 

Assaf

[trajan]

Thanks Assaf - yes, I think heavy chamber and heavier barrels explains weigrh chnge.

 

These date converesions are a real bu**er. Rumi calenders hurt my brains - seriously! Ken Elks may say 1915 -1916 and could be right  but I will double check with our Ottoman people here. For everyone else's enjoyment, two calendar dates to show the problem in conversion - simple if you know the months, but when it is only the year then you have a range. I just wish they had dated them AH, then life would be a bit easier! 

 

Do I have your Hebrew article? Were you using Hintermeier?

 

I guess that O&Rsenal have not yet done test-firing of the P-M (NWhite above post no. 5), so let's wait until they do to test. I guess Shipping Steel has retired from here but maybe he may might comment again...

 

Time for bed, seriously... BUT I still want independent comment on the weight of an unloaded PM conversion as used in the GW! 

 

[assafx]

to make things worse the hebrew date on the upper one can be (depends on the month) in 1910 or 1911.

in this case i read Nissan and not Kislev and it is written 22 (Kaf Bet) in hebrew which actually makes it April 20th. kislev is 4 months earlier.

 

I'm not sure if i sent you the Article, Here but just to make sure here is a link:

https://www.academia.edu/35519694/Ottoman_Military_Logistics_as_Reflected_in_the_findings_at_Nebi_Samuel_Hebrew_הלוגיסטיקה_העותמאנית_בראי_הממצא_מנבי_סמואל

it is based on an episode from thesis that i'm turning slowly into a book.

 

I just need to see if the ammo fits, no need to fire it

 

Assaf

[trajan]

18 hours ago, assafx said:

to make things worse the hebrew date on the upper one can be (depends on the month) in 1910 or 1911.

in this case i read Nissan and not Kislev and it is written 22 (Kaf Bet) in hebrew which actually makes it April 20th. kislev is 4 months earlier.

 

I'm not sure if i sent you the Article, Here but just to make sure here is a link:

https://www.academia.edu/35519694/Ottoman_Military_Logistics_as_Reflected_in_the_findings_at_Nebi_Samuel_Hebrew_הלוגיסטיקה_העותמאנית_בראי_הממצא_מנבי_סמואל

it is based on an episode from thesis that i'm turning slowly into a book.

 

I just need to see if the ammo fits, no need to fire it

 

Assaf

 

Yes, those calendars... The second one really shows how busy it can be! If we go by the French date then it is 01 Jan 1906, the Russian is one day behind - why? - and the AH date is 1322, the Rumi 1320...

[trajan]

18 hours ago, assafx said:

... Im not sure if i sent you the Article, Here but just to make sure here is a link:

https://www.academia.edu/35519694/Ottoman_Military_Logistics_as_Reflected_in_the_findings_at_Nebi_Samuel_Hebrew_הלוגיסטיקה_העותמאנית_בראי_הממצא_מנבי_סמואל I just need to see if the ammo fits, no need to fire it

 

I downloaded the article via Google translate - which works better with Hebrew than with Turkish, believe you me! And for some obscure reason also works better on my HP lap-top using WORD (which I did this morning) than on my Macbookbook air (for library and 'pub' time use! - guess which right now!). I have not read it all the way through, but have picked at bits and pieces. And my immediate thought was - why not summarise  and translate and publish it here - or even better, shorten it an publish it in Journal of Conflict Archaeology or one of the Turkish journals?? Then it would be more accessible to all of us! From the bits I have looked at it is a very interesting contribution of GW studies - I am sure MichaelDR would agree. But, I guess if you want to make the thesis a book, then best to leave as is...

 

So, to the ammunition question. Well, I think Michael Haselgrove answered that. Something to do with the primer system? But size matters also.... The converted P-M's - which were in use at Gallipoli and I would assume in Syria-palestine were all chambered to take the 7.65 X 53 mm standard cartridge as used in the Mauser 1890, the cartridge in the original P-M rifles was an 11.43 x 55R. I need to back to the earlier thread on this - it was a Lebel cartridge wasn't it?

[assafx]

1 hour ago, trajan said:

 

I downloaded the article via Google translate - which works better with Hebrew than with Turkish, believe you me! And for some obscure reason also works better on my HP lap-top using WORD (which I did this morning) than on my Macbookbook air (for library and 'pub' time use! - guess which right now!). I have not read it all the way through, but have picked at bits and pieces. And my immediate thought was - why not summarise  and translate and publish it here - or even better, shorten it an publish it in Journal of Conflict Archaeology or one of the Turkish journals?? Then it would be more accessible to all of us! From the bits I have looked at it is a very interesting contribution of GW studies - I am sure MichaelDR would agree. But, I guess if you want to make the thesis a book, then best to leave as is...

 

So, to the ammunition question. Well, I think Michael Haselgrove answered that. Something to do with the primer system? But size matters also.... The converted P-M's - which were in use at Gallipoli and I would assume in Syria-palestine were all chambered to take the 7.65 X 53 mm standard cartridge as used in the Mauser 1890, the cartridge in the original P-M rifles was an 11.43 x 55R. I need to back to the earlier thread on this - it was a Lebel cartridge wasn't it?

What an effort for translating it. it would be easier to fly over and to sit down with me

Someone actually suggested that i should submit it to the, BRITISH COMMISSION FOR MILITARY HISTORY JOURNAL.

Sadly, reading their guidelines,  it was already published so i can't submit it.

I don't mind publishing it again, i can take the first six pages out (they review in short the history of the fighting at the site) and just deal with how the finds reflects on the Ottoman logistics.

my problem is finding the time to finish the book. i need two months leave from work and its done. the problem is what these two months will do to my bank account...

 let me know what you think once you are done reading.

 

the original ammo is 11.43X59R same as M-H rifle (there is a shape difference) and according to ken 630,000 rifles were made

 

Assaf

[zuluwar2006]

TRAJAN GOOD EVENING

CHECK THIS OUT PLEASE, FROM MY COLLECTION

REGARDS

D.

[assafx]

wow, this is the 11.43X59R  if i'm seeing right.

are there any other markings on the gun?

 

Assaf

[zuluwar2006]

HELLO ASSAF

NO OTHER MARKINGS

ONLY WHAT I CAN SHOW ON PHOTOS.

DO YOU THINK IS RARE????

REGARDS

D.

[assafx]

i'm not a collector so i cannot say how rare this gun is.

[zuluwar2006]

[trajan]

On 08.04.2018 at 19:00, assafx said:

... it would be easier to fly over and to sit down with me  ...

Someone actually suggested that i should submit it to the, BRITISH COMMISSION FOR MILITARY HISTORY JOURNAL.

Sadly, reading their guidelines,  it was already published so i can't submit it.

I don't mind publishing it again, i can take the first six pages out (they review in short the history of the fighting at the site) and just deal with how the finds reflects on the Ottoman logistics.

my problem is finding the time to finish the book. i need two months leave from work and its done. the problem is what these two months will do to my bank account...

the original ammo is 11.43X59R same as M-H rifle (there is a shape difference) and according to ken 630,000 rifles were made

 

 

Haven't been to Israel since 1987 (and to be frank was made very unwelcome by immigration on arrival because of my numerous Jordananian, Tunisian, and Egyptian entry.exit stamps!). My daughter frequently visits  - and in fact is over in your neck of the woods right now, attending a wedding!

 

A major re-write of an already published article in a foreign language is acceptable by most journals. A major re-write along the lines of what you suggest should be ok. And I think I could get it a place in a Dutch-Turkish journal for which I am one of the consultant editors - but that is not a C.Index one, but there is another possible one that is

 

Good luck with the book and I understand the need and time to concentrate. I have been away from GWF for 2-3 weeks now just trying to get my P-M article done. Writing articles in term-time is a real bu**er, especially when there are two kids to deal with also. I would love to teach 2 courses per semester insted of three (especially when it is usually at least one new one each semester) but my bank account would not survive it! But it is that matter of just trying to get back into an 11,000 word article over a weekend that takes so much time...

 

Yes, there is a major shape difference between M-H and P-M ammunition - the M-H used fat Boxer cartridges. Same calibre, but... See below...

 

Ken's figures are nearly there. Initial  contracts were for 600,000 plus 700 for the Valide Sultana, plus about 30 or so private orders (off the top of my head). A sticky thing yet to be resolved is what are these 'Martini-Henry's' in use in 1916 as per British Military Intelligence. The Tufek hane at Constantinople WAS making clones of these - or, to be more precise, making rifles called 'Martini-Henry's', in the 1880's - there are Ottoman and British records about these. Added to which gunsmiths in Albania were certainly making clones. I once saw what I think was an Albanian one, with a meaningless text on the left side of the receiver and elsewhere - rather like those 'Khyber Pass' copies of Enfields. As far as I have been able to establish, the only M-H's officially received by Turkey were the ones gifted to Aultan AbdulAziz by the Khedive in 1872 - 50,000. 

 

Julian

 

[trajan]

On 18.04.2018 at 18:27, zuluwar2006 said:

TRAJAN GOOD EVENING

CHECK THIS OUT PLEASE, FROM MY COLLECTION

REGARDS

D.

 

Now, that is a converted P-M indeed - but to what? The original serial number is 331,853, so if I understand things correctly, this was made after the summer of 1876, when the first 200,000 were completed, but before  20th November 1876, when records indicate a grand total of 369,200 P-M rifles had been made - all of these with a safety catch, missing from yours.

 

But yours' has gone through a massive rebuild - to become a shotgun? Both sides of the receiver have been cut down, which is not the case with the conversions to take the Mauser cartridge, which have receivers that look the one below (courtesy of John P.Sheehan). Note, incidentall, the distingusing marks for a conversion as here - the Osmanlica text reading: "“Tüfenk Fabrikası / İstanbul / 1321 - Sene", and so “Rifle Factory, Istanbul, 1321 - year (1912 / 1913 - I think!)" below the Peabody-Martini stamping. Incidentally on some of these the date is given as, e.g., 'sene - 1322', i.e., the word for 'year' before the date.

 

Julian

 

PS: Need that second cup of coffee... '1321' is 1903/1904' wich is impossible as the contracts were not issued until 1910 or so, therefore the guy who stamped this one made a mistake...

 

 

Edited 20 April , 2018 by trajan
Add PS

[trajan]

1 hour ago, zuluwar2006 said:

 

This confirms this was never converted as otherwise it would have  a serial number behind the breech as below (courtesy of C&Rsenal) - in this case 164,236. Note also the word for year before the number, so "sene - 1331'

[zuluwar2006]

trajan, a conversion mayebe for manlicher rifle of the greek army???
regards

D.

[zuluwar2006]

trajan, you are AMAZING!!!!!!

yes, his was converted to a shotgun!!!!!

i didn't knew that,

 i just realize what it is.

ok, i am going to hunt my wife now!!!!!

regards, D.

[assafx]

21 hours ago, trajan said:

 

Haven't been to Israel since 1987 (and to be frank was made very unwelcome by immigration on arrival because of my numerous Jordananian, Tunisian, and Egyptian entry.exit stamps!). My daughter frequently visits  - and in fact is over in your neck of the woods right now, attending a wedding!

 

A major re-write of an already published article in a foreign language is acceptable by most journals. A major re-write along the lines of what you suggest should be ok. And I think I could get it a place in a Dutch-Turkish journal for which I am one of the consultant editors - but that is not a C.Index one, but there is another possible one that is

 

Good luck with the book and I understand the need and time to concentrate. I have been away from GWF for 2-3 weeks now just trying to get my P-M article done. Writing articles in term-time is a real bu**er, especially when there are two kids to deal with also. I would love to teach 2 courses per semester insted of three (especially when it is usually at least one new one each semester) but my bank account would not survive it! But it is that matter of just trying to get back into an 11,000 word article over a weekend that takes so much time...

 

Yes, there is a major shape difference between M-H and P-M ammunition - the M-H used fat Boxer cartridges. Same calibre, but... See below...

 

Ken's figures are nearly there. Initial  contracts were for 600,000 plus 700 for the Valide Sultana, plus about 30 or so private orders (off the top of my head). A sticky thing yet to be resolved is what are these 'Martini-Henry's' in use in 1916 as per British Military Intelligence. The Tufek hane at Constantinople WAS making clones of these - or, to be more precise, making rifles called 'Martini-Henry's', in the 1880's - there are Ottoman and British records about these. Added to which gunsmiths in Albania were certainly making clones. I once saw what I think was an Albanian one, with a meaningless text on the left side of the receiver and elsewhere - rather like those 'Khyber Pass' copies of Enfields. As far as I have been able to establish, the only M-H's officially received by Turkey were the ones gifted to Aultan AbdulAziz by the Khedive in 1872 - 50,000. 

 

Julian

 

Don't forget that in 1987 the first intifada started and people were a little bit more over the edge.

I'll think about the rewrite again, in the meanwhile i had some free time in the past two weeks, so  i already have a draft of the first two chapters (the third is the article that needs some add ons) and i need to re write the fourth and rebuild the plates. so i don't know how much time i want to take away from it.

 

it's hard to tell, from the British intelligence report, how many P-M were converted and how many stayed in use. it is hart to assess how many were lost in the wars the Ottomans had up until the Great War. I don't remember a local manufacturing of gun and ammo so that is a great addition to what we might know.

 

what i do find curious is the conversion of the gun that ZUluwar posted to a shotgun. was it made by the army or is it a local farmer conversion?

 

Assaf

 

 

 

[zuluwar2006]

Assaf, i really do not know, only trajan can help us on this matter.

Regards, D.