More bad news from Europe on De-act Bolt action rifles

[5thBatt]

Is the 154,958 figure the number of licenced owners?

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, 5thBatt said:

Is the 154,958 figure the number of licensed owners?

 

    Yes-   UK Government statistics- online-Search  "UK Registered Firearms Licences"

[Gunner Bailey]

  I think you have proved fairly conclusively that there is no connection in the UK between legal gun ownership and the criminal use of firearms and even less proof of deactivated guns being used in crimes,

 

I'd like to see the same data for France, where gun ownership is far higher and the deact market was quite strong as well.

[depaor01]

8 hours ago, chaz said:

its a shame when animosity joins the forum. Ive been dropping in and out of the thread and not contributed.

back in the seventies I lived in the country, cycled everywhere with mates from other villages, fishing rods on one side of crossbar, air rifles on the other, a bag of food on our backs and bowie knives on our belts. never had a problem. couldnt do it now.

then we grew up, hit 16 and got more killing machines, mopeds, then at 17 bigger ones cars, and from 16 or 17 discovered the pleasure of beer...

all these things have been hit by government legislation same as deacts, more kids been killed in or by cars and on bikes but not yet banned.

every one is going to have a different reason for keeping or banning anything.

New Zealand has not had much trouble , yet, but somewhere along the line who knows, then it could be a different matter, if TPOTUS gets kicked out his successor could push for a change in laws that would upset the NRA, just like the current occupier has done with his predecessors health laws.

 

the current EU regulations on motorcycles is only the next step in regulation. I passed a test on a 50 , stepped up to a 250 passed full test and can ride unlimited cc. all for £100 today its a couple of hundred for the first stage then £500 minimum for next stage and limited to cc for 2 years. its driving teenagers away from bikes. a few lessons and one test and you can drive a Porsche. Motorcycle Euro4 could kill off more riders along with many small garages like mine, bikes must now be fitted with data points so owners can fault find their own faults for a £20 hand held unit not a £2000 snap on one.

even if we leave the EU we will still be governed by their rules as the manufacturers overseas will not want to build two specs of the same machine, likewise UK makers like Triumph would have to make different spec bikes to sell outside the UK.

still have an air rifle and two pistols capable of doing a lot of damage also have machined some cases to use different smaller shells in larger rifles

Great post. The world certainly feels no safer despite governments "knowing best". Glad I invested in getting my driving/motorcycling qualifications when it was more straightforward. 

Dave 

 

[Guest]

On 27/07/2018 at 07:58, Gunner Bailey said:

Well done GUEST.  I think you have proved fairly conclusively that there is no connection in the UK between legal gun ownership and the criminal use of firearms and even less proof of deactivated guns being used in crimes,

 

I'd like to see the same data for France, where gun ownership is far higher and the deact market was quite strong as well.

 

     I do not wish you ill-will in your endeavours.  I know that historic militaria  collectors are generally good folk- my experience is that they are responsible and very knowledgeable ( OK-sometimes to the level of mania!!).  What I ran past you was a very basic and crude case of what you are challenging.  Every year, 2 sets of stats. come out- crime and perceived crime (British Crime Survey et al). Now-we all know what civil servants and the police can do with crime statistics, which appear not to be held in high repute. - (too much gerrymandering). The PERCEPTION of crime stats. are what really counts here- what Joe Public thinks is going on with crime.  And that is where I think you have a brick-wall. The perception of Joe Public is that violent crime is on the increase- Yes, the greater part of it is knife crime- impossible to control knives unless you get to the extremes of issuing everyone in the UK with an extra spoon and making all knives illegal. Yes, most gun crime will be from weapons outsourced from some of dodgier stocks of stuff hither and thither (I note that Serbia is the second highest legal gun  ownership after the US-let alone what was left over from the Jugoslav-Soviet era or the Balkan troubles  of a few years back).

     Joe Public wants guns clamped down on. Statistically, you lot are blameless-although the odd rogue collector or dealer will get a lot of Press coverage (and not by accident either). But you are in the position of the man sentenced to death by Lord Mansfield in the Eighteenth Century -"You are to be hanged not for stealing a horse but to stop others from stealing horses".   You are an easy target. I wish you well but I suspect that the best you can hope for is patient negotiation from a base of solid evidence that you are no threat-and seek amendments to the rules. But in the current climate I cannot see any politician championing your cause-  speaking up for ANY form of gun possession is not a vote winner  (No matter how responsible) and  in the current climate is not going to happen

 

[Gunner Bailey]

The problem gentlemen is that the Police statistics are simply rubbish.

 

80% of the "firearms offences" recorded by the Police are actually for air guns, air soft 'toys' and things like chair legs and cucumbers in a plastic bag. Even pointing a water pistol at someone in a public place gets recorded as a "firearm". The statistics have been gerrymandered for YEARS to scare politicians into more and more legistlation.

 

Can you tell me if you know of anyone personally who has even heard a gun fired in a crime?  We simply do not have a problem with legally owned guns in the UK but the law is being extended to punish anyone who even likes to own an ex gun.

[RGJDEE]

Gunner , I have to agree with everything you said.

Easier( and cheaper) to buy an unliscenced automatic pistol(Live) than to source a No 1 MK lll (deac).

Nanny State gone mad. Need a liscence to own a pencil sharpener soon.

R.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Gunner Bailey said:

The problem gentlemen is that the Police statistics are simply rubbish.

 

80% of the "firearms offences" recorded by the Police are actually for air guns, air soft 'toys' and things like chair legs and cucumbers in a plastic bag. Even pointing a water pistol at someone in a public place gets recorded as a "firearm". The statistics have been gerrymandered for YEARS to scare politicians into more and more legistlation.

 

Can you tell me if you know of anyone personally who has even heard a gun fired in a crime?  We simply do not have a problem with legally owned guns in the UK but the law is being extended to punish anyone who even likes to own an ex gun.

 

Today's  news:   (OK, I know that police statements can be very misleading-Duuring the 2011 riots there was CCTV of "shots being fired" at police in Hackney-but as my kids pointed out, there was no muzzle flash-so BB at best.

 

Forest Gate shooting: Three people arrested after 'shots fired at police' in east London

•  
•  
•  

Save

[Gunner Bailey]

 99% of people in the UK are completely untroubled by gun crime. The main victims are criminals themselves and sadly and thankfully rarely police officers. I live on the edge of rural Kent and maybe 2 or 3 times a year hear hunters discharging shotguns on farming land. Even living in London for most of my life I never heard a criminal gunshot.

 

The Police have made an industry out of hyping up gun crime in the UK but in reality it hardly exists compared to overall crime and the size of the population. For example they used the 2012 Olympics to renew most of their pistols and sub machine guns. Some millions were spent on their new toys and surprise, nothing happened. The old guns would have worked just as well.

 

 

[Stevie]

I have followed the more recent posts in this thread with some interest, and without wishing to insult GUEST, I find some of his remarks plain stupid at best. He commented that: 'Any part of a small arm that is damaged or removed to de-activate can be made again.' Is he seriously trying to tell me that someone would go to the trouble of making a new barrel, new breech, new bolt and bolt-face for my SMLE in an attempt to reactivate it... when they could just go out and chop up an old bicycle and make a VERY effective sub machine gun out of the tubing. And yes... we do know that a deactivated weapon is indistinguishable from a live firing weapon... just as are the CO2 pistols, rifles and Mg's which are currently available. And just as many children's toy guns are. Almost anything can be used to make a reasonably realistic weapon, but only an utter fool would dare confront police with a gun of ANY description. And Gunner Bailey... your assertion that a deact gun is NOT a gun. Well it IS a gun, and will always be a gun. It ceases to be a Firearm when it is deactivated.

Cheers,

            Steve.

[T8HANTS]

Someone I know told me they had a full police armed response unit turn up at his place of employment.  A woman passing by in  her car had seen people carrying firearms, machine guns even.  The cops were told in no uncertain terms to rugger off as it was a MOD Defence establishment and they were not cleared for entry.

 

[Dave66]

24 minutes ago, T8HANTS said:

Someone I know told me they had a full police armed response unit turn up at his place of employment.  A woman passing by in  her car had seen people carrying firearms, machine guns even.  The cops were told in no uncertain terms to rugger off as it was a MOD Defence establishment and they were not cleared for entry.

 

I wonder what the boys in blue would make of this....

 

[Guest]

On 27/07/2018 at 21:10, Stevie said:

I have followed the more recent posts in this thread with some interest, and without wishing to insult GUEST, I find some of his remarks plain stupid at best.

 

       I bow to your superior knowledge of how to make dangerous and illegal firearms at home. 

         Do you really think that it is a compelling argument for "responsible" owners of firearms to say they should be allowed to keep them as they have the know-how to make something else anyway?

     I cannot see how any government is going to give you the time of day for any arguments about how responsible you are- If you get caught by a "catch-all" attitude by the powers-that-be, then-I regret to say- you bring it on yourselves by the attitude displayed in your post. No government is going to raise a finger to help you in those circumstances, nor listen to what you have to say, however reasoned, for a very considerable time to come.If ever.

 

2)   There seems little point in going through expertise and advanced knowledge of weapons. The basis of current legislation is that anything that is a gun OR REPRESENTED TO BE A GUN is in the frame for control and prohibition. It will not do you the slightest bit of good to say that a gun cannot be re-activated- it still LOOKS LIKE A GUN BECAUSE IT IS A GUN.  There is no way short of Hell freezing over that the powers-that-be (ie The Home Office ,NABIS, ACPO,etc) are going to give tuppence worth of time to your arguments. Their case is that many forms of gun and non--gun are used to represent guns.  Do you seriously expect the powers-that-be to exempt you because you are an expert at telling weapons apart and what has been deactivated or cannot be re-activated?  The policy is a catch-all for a very good reason- and that reason is that someone on the end of having a "gun" pointed at them is not going to p*ss around working through an inventory of what different types and makes of weapon there are-and what is "de-act" or not.  You are caught by a broad brush. Get real and get used to it. 

[loganshort]

Maybe, just maybe, there is an argument for a new type of firearms license for any old legal de-acts. I would quite happily pay £20/£30 for a de-act license for my smle. And of course be able to sell it one day to another license holder without having the rifle butchered any further. A good thread with (mostly) good arguments. I've yet to see the proverbial "hoody" standing at a street corner with his smle stuck down his trouser leg. Would be even weirder if he had the bayonet attached! (apologies to any members who wear a hoody) As for the thread not having relevance to the forum - of course it has! I do talks on WW1 and take my smle with me, very popular amongst gentlemen of a certain age who did National Service. One took great pleasure in stripping it causing a lot of memories amongst the audience. You wouldnt be able to strip down a new reg de-act. People are amazed at the seemingly cumbersome method of loading and firing, seeing how the bolt is used, and the story of British "rapid fire" technique used to great effect at Mons 1914. Nothing but admiration for the men who mastered this technique. An old de-act with "working" bolt is essential to this story. Lastly, a very elderly lady handled the rifle and talked of her father who was in the Home Guard, WW2. He would come home off duty with a WW1 rifle and (with it's empty magazine) let his kids play with it. She handled it with a tear in her eye at the memory of her father.

[Gunner Bailey]

I cannot see how any government is going to give you the time of day for any arguments about how responsible you are- If you get caught by a "catch-all" attitude by the powers-that-be, then-I regret to say- you bring it on yourselves by the attitude displayed in your post. No government is going to raise a finger to help you in those circumstances, nor listen to what you have to say, however reasoned, for a very considerable time to come.If ever.

 

GUEST

 

Actually the Police were very sympathetic to the arguments put forward by the DWA. It was the ignorant politicians and Home Office civil Servants that agreed with the EU on this.

 

I'm struggling to think of any 'catch all' law that is a severe as this.

 

90% of all motorists speed on a daily basis and could kill.

 

Are all cars fitted with speed governors to control this?

 

Many Doctors treat patients improperly resulting in their deaths.

 

Are all doctors under strict supervision?

 

The Deact laws are so OTT as to be almost fascist in their application.

 

As a preventative law the deact laws are irrelevant because you cannot re-activate a legally deactivated firearm done to the old UK spec. Therefore it is not relevant as the item in question is no longer a firearm.

 

So how can something that is no longer a firearm be subject to firearms laws? Oh, I think that goes back to the Police stats that include chair legs, cucumbers and water pistols. Its a nonsense.

 

John

 

 

[Gunner Bailey]

 

2)  We live in an age of administrative Machiavellis. If the powers-that-be cannot control,let alone reduce, serious violent crime, then sacrficial lambs are the next best things- fools the public that something is being done, albeit useless in practical terms.

On that we agree 100%

[Stevie]

GUEST.. you are very skilful at distorting what I said without even explaining whether someone would really go through all the trouble of making so many new components for a properly deactivated gun, when it is far easier to make a crude automatic weapon. You do not need to be a skilful gunsmith, and I saw enough of these back street made guns during my time in Northern Ireland to know how highly effective they were. When I fired guns it was my job, and not my hobby. And now my interest in guns is purely because of my interest in WW1.

[Guest]

On 28/07/2018 at 21:36, Stevie said:

GUEST... you are very skilful at distorting what I said without even explaining whether someone would really go through all the trouble of making so many new components for a properly deactivated gun, when it is far easier to make a crude automatic weapon. You do not need to be a skilful gunsmith, and I saw enough of these back street made guns during my time in Northern Ireland to know how highly effective they were. When I fired guns it was my job, and not my hobby. And now my interest in guns is purely because of my interest in WW1.

 

        Yes- I mentioned earlier in the thread that to my knowledge, guns were knocked out at an engineering works not far from where I lived (World class engineering firm)- not to supply the criminal market but something to do at lunchtimes- No trouble at all getting the blueprints and technical specs., nor any getting the right grades of steel.  It is ironic that given the nature of technological change, that the most successful ever killing weapon-the firearm- is old technology. A competent machine shop could knock out a Colt or a Browning pistol much more easily in a lunchbreak that a cheapo digital watch that would cost £2 in a petrol station.  One aspect of the clamp-down-over a broad front- is that  it is likely to boost "home-grown" production -and be harder to thwart-no customs trails, no foreign police intel.  It happened with Class A drugs-  a classic of the economics of supply and demand-  there was a campaign by police, customs,etc against cocaine importation. Consequence-  Cocaine was imported instead of "grass"-If one was taking the risk, then why go for something cheaper? Thus, the supply of cocaine went up and the price down. At the same time, the substitution of cocaine for "grass" meant there was a market shortage of "grass" and the price went up-stimulating the home-grown production. Those I know who are familiar with that world say that in London, you cannot walk a quarter mile in any built-up area without passing a cannabis farm of some sort. the fantastic piece of legislation-The Law of Unintended Consequences

     It was not intended to have a go at you. A distressing point is the manipulation by the powers-that-be of the tales of the occasional rogue gun-holder-  when a registered firearms holder has unregistered firearms as well. My, how much publicity that gets.

     You and I both (me just at school-no, it wasn't a rough school!) are probably both familiar with the Sterling-and I suspect that every army firearms instructor that ever demonstrated it had the same 2 things to say about it-  1) How few the number of parts (I forget-15?)-all cast or pressed steel, not machined. 2)They cost 7/6 to make.  Yes, the present clamp-down is ridiculous- my go at others was to suggest that it will be a lost cause regardless of virtue and sense. But there will be QPMs and MBEs a-plenty for the administrators that do it.

     And just because it is topical and local- an incident where the Met. were shot at -4 arrests-here are the charges  for Monday morning (It's Forest Gate,about 2 miles from where I live).  Shows the utter futility of clamping down on you lot- and also the total futility of the situation all-round: And, not a WW1 weapon among them.  

• ekan Akinsoji, 20, of no fixed address: Charged with three counts of murder, possession of a shotgun, possession of a shotgun with intent to endanger life, two counts of possession of a knife/pointed article and possession of a firearm following a suspended sentence
• Nathaniel Lewis , 22, of Earlham Grove, east London: Charged with three counts of murder, possession of a shotgun, possession of a shotgun with intent to endanger life, two counts of possession of a knife/pointed article and possession of a firearm following a suspended sentence
• Darnell Joseph-Newill, 21, of Willis Road, east London: Charged with three counts of murder, possession of a shotgun, possession of a shotgun with intent to endanger life and two counts of possession of a knife/pointed article
• Troy Ifill, 21, of Torrens Square, east London: Charged with three counts of murder, possession of a shotgun, possession of a shotgun with intent to endanger life, possession of a firearm when prohibited and three counts of possession of a knife/pointed article

They are all in custody ahead of Monday's court appearance.

      

 

 

[Stevie]

The current deactivation regulations are probably about as far as you can go - without the total destruction of the weapon. If deactivated weapons were completely banned it would have very little impact on my collection, but I feel so sorry for those collectors who have invested a lot of money in historic guns. When I originally had my collection of WW1 machine guns - now long gone, they cost me very little to purchase. In fact... one Mg08 was actually given to me by the local military museum, this being just one of the advantages of being ex-forces. But an Mg08 would now cost you in the region of £10,000 to purchase.

 

It is no use the police harping on about how they are unable to spot the difference between a deactivated gun and a live-firer in a firearms-related incident as an excuse to try and get them banned, as there are many types of guns out there which are equally realistic when viewed from the wrong end of the barrel. And as I said before, anyone who starts waving one about in public deserves everything they get. The best that gun collectors can hope for is that common sense will prevail in the end, and that deactivated weapons done to the current (new) standard pose no threat at all to the public. They cannot kill... unless used as a clubbing weapon of course, and any ban of civilian ownership would only result I the destruction of countless numbers of historical weapons.. Whenever a historical display of any kind is mounted in our public parks and stately homes, the displays the draw the biggest crowds are the one's that have re-enactors armed with the types of weapons which were in use during the period they represent. I was guest speaker at Heaton Park, Manchester, during the 100th anniversary event held to commemorate the battle of the Somme. I think that those who were foolish enough to enter the tent to hear me prattle on, were more interested in my SMLE than they were about my talk on the Accrington Pals. But such is life.

 

Nor can the threat of terrorist attacks be used as a legitimate excuse to remove deactivated weapons from circulation. Virtually all the attacks carried out by Islamic terrorists in this country have been carried out using crude home-made bombs, knifes, and vehicles as the chosen method of delivery. I for one do not have a problem with the new deactivation process... there are only so many times that you can cock and dry-fire a weapon before it becomes rather boring, and I fully understand the need to make sure that such weapons can never be made to fire again. I firmly believe that the current specifications achieve this, and although it might not be to the liking of collectors... it is certainly much better than being banned from owning them... and much better than what we had before the 1980's. The new EU regulations are supposed to be applied by all the member countries, but on another militaria forum that I am a member of, there has been a posting by a gentleman in Belgium who has just acquired a fully functional Mp44. His house is literally crammed with fully functioning automatic weapons, and he claims that he is allowed to keep them because he has a 'collectors' licence. Now how scary is that?

 

Cheers,

            Steve.

[5thBatt]

"and he claims that he is allowed to keep them because he has a 'collectors' licence. Now how scary is that?" Not scary at all! unless you have been made to feel scared! In NZ there are many FAL holders with a C endorsement on their licences with allows them to own virtually any firearm, smg's, mg's, select fire assault rifles, rpgs etc etc etc, none of these are deactivated because as i said before we have no such thing as a deact in NZs firearms laws, now of course these need to be stored with a vital part removed as a precaution against theft (but i think that might be a recommendation only) anything held on a C cat endorsement cannot be fired unless you hold a theatrical licence for reenactments & then only blanks, now as far as i am aware there has only been 2 events where a mg has been used in a crime in NZ one way back in 1963 which was crim on crim & a more recent event which i understand was with a home built smg.

The big advantage we have (other than learning from your mistakes) is the percentage of licence holders we have here, the number would have to be around 16,000 to match the UK as opposed to the roughly 240,000 we currently have, plus some of our MP's are licence holders as well, including the Deputy of NZ first who are in power with Labour as a coalition at this time.

[chaz]

Not adding to the argument/s , just saying... Years ago, before the company moved to its new location a lot of old drawings were thrown away as not of "railway" parts. I managed to locate drawings for  a rifle , apparently we made during the war , can't remember 1 or 2. I also work in the machine shop with cnc/ conversational programming. It wouldn't take much to set up production again, this time faster.

would be easier and quicker than setting up to. Re activate a de act. I often find working on bodged cars and bikes harder than making or buying new parts. 

The worst thing is, most of our pre ww2 machines , line borers, broaches etc have been sold to 3rd world countries. 

[5thBatt]

Bit off topic for the forum but not for this thread, during WW2 a local man here in Wanganui designed & built a 9mm smg in his backyard shed, it was actually even sent to Britain for testing, it did however fail testing but thats not the point really, the point is even back then you could build a smg in your backyard, imagine how well you could make one these days!! Btw it was called the Mitchell & was designed by a guy called Allan Mitchell if you wish to look it up.

[Guest]

On ‎13‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 14:31, Stevie said:

As far as I am aware there is (at the moment) no plans to make the older specification guns illegal to own, they are only illegal to sell. If the time comes that you do wish to sell them, you will have to get them deactivated to whatever specification is in force at the time.

Stevie is absolutely correct.  The pre-2016 (and now 2018) deactivated weapons are still legal to own.   However, they are referred to as 'defectively deactivated' and you cannot dispose of them in any way other than to have them re-deactivated to the current specification. To make them illegal makes no sense to the authorities at all.  Older deacs have not been controlled at all, so there is no register of who has what so this will be impossible to police, and as usual, it will be the law-abiding citizens that will stump up their deac details leaving the criminal to keep their deacs without record.  Also, making them illegal would force the Government to pay compensation which they can't afford, let alone the administrative nightmare that that would entail.  In that respect, the 'defectively deactivated' description is quite clever really.  Overnight, my £50K cherished deac collection has suddenly lost 80% of its value and I'll have to pay even more to dispose of them! I'll be keeping mine but I have left a considerable sum (£200 per deac to cover transport, the actual deactivation work and re-submission to the Proof House) in my will to reduce the hassle my family has with their disposal on my demise.  Thankfully I won't be around to see the ensuing butchery!

 

 

[Derek Black]

Last figures for 2017 below.  UK pop. is about 60 million    Thus, one firearm for roughly every 17 Kiwis.    UK figure is one firearm for 378 Brits.

GUEST,

 

Your figure's a tad out.
UK population is over 66 million as of mid 2017.

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/bulletins/annualmidyearpopulationestimates/latest

Just a minor quibble, but as it's a 10 percent out, I thought you'd like to know.
 

Cheers,
Derek.

[5thBatt]

 

     Unaware it was 66 million. No wonder the underground is so b*oody crowded.  So-makes NZ look like a gun-crazed dystopia then?  That takes some doing!!

Especially when NZ is ranked 2nd most peaceful country out of 163 countries & the UK is ranked 57th