More bad news from Europe on De-act Bolt action rifles

[T8HANTS]

I have just been sent this from a mate which I take at face value.

 

Dear Public Members,

Many of you will remember that as part of the EU Firearms Directive, the Rapporteur Vicky Ford introduced a requirement for the European Commission to review the Deactivation Regulation. The purpose of this review was to clarify the technical processes specified as many of these in the original Regulation were unclear, open to interpretation or technically difficult/impossible to achieve.

On Thursday last week a revised Regulation was published containing a number of amendments to the original Regulation (which still applies). In particular, a new set of processes for the deactivation of each firearms type. These new standards will come into force on Thursday June 28^th 2018.

It will probably come as no surprise to you that the Commission has gone way beyond the remit set by IMCO in the revised Directive and through this Regulation, are introducing a deactivation standard that can only be described as draconian in the extreme. Their rationale for this is to meet the requirements of Article 9 (b) of the UN Protocol Against the Illicit Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, …

The new Regulation is attached to this email for your information, but in brief, for all firearms types, trigger mechanisms have to be destroyed and essential parts captivated. This will effectively mean that no deactivated firearm will have a working dry-fire action and none will be able to be field stripped. Other requirements are broadly in line with the existing EU requirements with some limited differences. We are still looking at the detail but based on our current understanding:

·         Semi Automatic Pistols – slide will move along with the hammer (if there is one). The trigger may move, but there will be no physical connection between it and the hammer/striker.

·         Revolvers – hammer will move; the cylinder may also rotate. The trigger may move, but there will be no physical connection between it and the hammer. The cylinder will move out of the frame on the crane or for break action revolvers, the action will break open.

·         Bolt Action Rifle/Shotgun – bolt will move back and forth but will not remove from action or indeed cock the action. The trigger may move, but there will be no physical connection between it and the sear.

·         Single/Double Barreled Shotgun – the action will break but the barrels will not remove from it. The trigger(s) may move, but there will be no physical connection between it/them and the hammer(s). On a hammer gun, the hammers will move under spring pressure, but won’t lock back.

·         Pump Action Shotgun – the pump arm will move and may also move the breech block. The trigger may move, but there will be no physical connection between it and the firing mechanism.

·         Assault Rifles, LMG/HMG and SMG – largely the same.

As last time, there may be some UK interpretations of these standards and/or additional UK processes. Many of the above will be more technically challenging to achieve, will require more gunsmithing time and for some makes and models, may not be achievable.

Going forward, the situation is therefore bleak for both your hobby and our businesses.

Sadly, the Commission has chosen to inflict yet further pain on us by making the new requirements retrospective for any firearm deactivated to the current EU Regulation. To be clear, this means that you can still legally own existing EU deactivated firearms from 28^th June, but you can not sell or otherwise transfer them without first having them re-deactivated to the new standards. This was strongly challenged in a recent IMCO scrutiny session by MEPs, but the Commission has simply ignored the protestations made and pushed it through anyway.

We know that you will be disappointed, upset and very probably enraged by this news. Our trade members are once again facing huge bills to re-deactivate their stock to a standard that will inevitably make it more difficult to sell. Once again, your collections have been devalued with no consideration of compensation or indeed the historical importance of items in private collections. We hope that you will take the time to share your unhappiness with your local MP – asking them to query the situation and its implications with the Minister.

We have requested a meeting with the Home Office and Proof Masters to discuss the implementation of this Regulation. The DWA also has a meeting with Nick Hurd, the Policing, etc. Minister in a couple of weeks. We have a further meeting with representatives from the gun trade, Home Office and Parliament this coming week. There is undoubtedly an air of disappointment from the powers that be regarding the EU’s response to the Regulation review and specifically to its retrospective nature. The DWA will also investigate legal options although, as previously, these may well be limited.

On a more positive note, the equivalency exercise to assess whether UK legacy deactivated firearms are of equivalent ‘safety/security’ to the EU spec is underway with the first meeting having taken place recently. A positive outcome in this exercise would of course allow them to be sold again. We are cautiously optimistic based on the feedback from this meeting, but the process does still have a long way to go. We will of course keep you updated as and when we know more.

--

DWA Administration

Deactivated Weapons Association

[healdav]

Note that the Commission has no power to 'reqire' or 'lay down' directives or regulations. This has been agreed to by the member States and the Commission is responsible for ensuring that they are adhered to. Somewhere in national laws, these requirements have been written in, and probably Britain will make them much more draconian (as usual).

[peregrinvs]

Also, as with the 2016 EU deactivation specifications, the above will have to be added into UK law for it to be enforceable. If this doesn't happen prior to March 2019, etc.

[Martin Weston]

Hi all I'm brand new to the forum, I was just looking to see how to post a new feed concerning my Gr Grandfather and his all to brief visit to France many a year ago, when I happened by this topic, I myself have a varied collection of historical weapons ranging from a "live" Martini Henri owned with a live musket on the "Obsolete Calibre" rules for historic weapons, the collection finds its way up to a Bren Gun which is a deactivated strippable dry fire version, which I can hold as it was deactivated/owned pre the new rules, but would have to deactivate to sell on. But also and more relevant here I have a 1916 Royal Navy .303 which also saw service in WW2, this is by far the most cherished in my collection, my question with this is (and the others) can I continue to own them in their current deactivation spec, the LeEnfield is a new 2016 spec with the (17) added magazine obstruction bar, the rifle is a original example with all original wood, muzzle, etc so welding in the bolt and destroying the mechanism would be complete historical vandalism to me. I never intend selling this or the others, so would I be aloud to keep them in the same ownership "as is" like the Bren, or are they planning to make it illegal to own an old spec one?

[Stevie]

As far as I am aware there is (at the moment) no plans to make the older specification guns illegal to own, they are only illegal to sell. If the time comes that you do wish to sell them, you will have to get them deactivated to whatever specification is in force at the time.

[593jones]

Perhaps I'm being unduly pessimistic, but I can foresee a time when any firearm that is not specifically licenced for hunting or target shooting will be required to be welded solid, with no moving parts whatever.  It's the thin end of the wedge, I tell you!

[Dave66]

4 hours ago, 593jones said:

Perhaps I'm being unduly pessimistic, but I can foresee a time when any firearm that is not specifically licenced for hunting or target shooting will be required to be welded solid, with no moving parts whatever.  It's the thin end of the wedge, I tell you!

With all these constant changes, I am so glad I haven't brought too many deacs.

ive been looking at adding a Smle for a good couple of years, but knowing the last set of rules was coming I left it to see where we all stood after the dust had settled, after hearing of these new changes I'm probably not going to bother at all because there's no guarantee they won't be altered again..great shame.

i have a 1915 flare gun which hasn't been affected by the changes in the law, but I have a 1916 Webley mk6 which would have to be re-deactivated if I were ever to sell, I am certainly not going to tie any more money up in anything else that I couldn't sell, of would have to spend considerable sums on bringing the object up to current spec, if the need should ever arise.

My biggest fear is if they ever changed the law regarding the ownership of bayonets and other historic bladed items...never say never nowadays, now that would cost me dearly.

 

Dave.

 

[Philip Wilson]

Thank you this is very helpful - re existing EU deactivated firearms. As a Museum we are unlikely to dispose of any existing  deactivated firearms in the foreseeable future.

 

If we are offered any firearms then we will not accept them unless they meet  the necessary deactivation requirements. 

[eairicbloodaxe]

I'm guessing none of this applies to the USA... perhaps we should all move there.

 

Just how many people have been killed in Europe by old standard deactivated firearms that were reactivated?

 

Pathetic. I feel really, really sorry for you serious collectors who admire the historical provenance of such items. What's next? Them saying "you can have your Medals and Memorial Plaques, but if you ever sell one you must grind the name off it."???

 

Regards

 

Ian

[depaor01]

I own a live Parker Hale sleeved .22 multi-numbered Lee Enfield. The low end of desirable examples

It seems crazy to me that this might end up easier to sell, even  with the licensing hassle, than a deact dry firing example.

It's not right.

 

Dave

[Dave66]

45 minutes ago, depaor01 said:

I own a live Parker Hale sleeved .22 multi-numbered Lee Enfield. The low end of desirable examples

It seems crazy to me that this might end up easier to sell, even  with the licensing hassle, than a deact dry firing example.

It's not right.

 

Dave

Who knows where it will end, 

I was talking to a nice chap the other day who was a firearms officer, the problem they have is they can't work out what is a live weapon or a deac when faced with some of the incidents they are called out to if they have to make a very quick decision....and I totally sympathise.

The problem is the actions of the few always ruin it for the rest.

 

Dave.

[593jones]

16 hours ago, eairicbloodaxe said:

I'm guessing none of this applies to the USA... perhaps we should all move there.

 

Just how many people have been killed in Europe by old standard deactivated firearms that were reactivated?

 

Pathetic. I feel really, really sorry for you serious collectors who admire the historical provenance of such items. What's next? Them saying "you can have your Medals and Memorial Plaques, but if you ever sell one you must grind the name off it."???

 

Regards

 

Ian

 

Shooters and gun owners in the USA tend to regard UK and European firearms laws with a certain degree of incredulity, and wonder why we tolerate them.  I do wonder myself, however, I don't think it would be good to for access to firearms to be as freely available here as it is in the US, but that is getting off topic.

 

I don't know that I could be classed as a serious collector, I have one obsolete calibre rifle and four de-acts, three of which pre-date the current regulations.  I don't have any plans to sell them, so that is not a problem, however, when I come to shuffle off this mortal coil I will be leaving the problem to my executors, and who knows what the regulations will be by then (hopefully some considerable time in the future!).  Hopefully the equivalency exercise, in the document quoted by T8HANTS, will be effective and the situation will not become worse.

[Stevie]

20 hours ago, Dave66 said:

Who knows where it will end, 

I was talking to a nice chap the other day who was a firearms officer, the problem they have is they can't work out what is a live weapon or a deac when faced with some of the incidents they are called out to if they have to make a very quick decision....and I totally sympathise.

The problem is the actions of the few always ruin it for the rest.

 

Dave.

That logic could be used as an excuse to have a blanket ban on ALL deactivated weapon, including section 58 weapons...or indeed anything that looks like a gun from a distance of a few yards. But even if they did that it wouldn't stop the police shooting unarmed civilians whom they only believed to be armed. I still recall the tremendous pressure we were under in Northern Ireland during the early 70's, and only thinking that someone was armed was not deemed as reasonable grounds for shooting at them - everything being governed by the rules of engagement as laid down on the 'yellow card.' Several soldiers ended up being severely punished for doing so, but the police always tend to get away with it. 

[trenchtrotter]

Different today. Police operate on different basis. No comparison. 

[healdav]

12 hours ago, Stevie said:

That logic could be used as an excuse to have a blanket ban on ALL deactivated weapon, including section 58 weapons...or indeed anything that looks like a gun from a distance of a few yards.

I was getting on a plane on Stornoway once, and the man in front of me had a "Super Power Ray Gun" in virulent yellow and green plastic, bought in some toyshop on the island , confiscated as a dangerous weapon! They put it in the hold and he got it back in Glasgow.

Sometimes people don't use that most uncommon of senses, common sense.

My next door neighbour is off to England at the moment to go to a Reenactors Fair. I hate to think what he might bring back. We looked out of the window one morning to find that there was a Napoleonic cannon parked on a trailer outside our house!

[T8HANTS]

And that is the perverseness of it all, I now strongly advise my new members not to buy de-act SMLEs, but go for a live firer on FAC as they are much easier to take to Europe if they want to. Have been slightly cheaper than de-acts, (although that may change).  If it goes bang and is on a ticket, thats fine.  If it can't possibly ever go bang, thats naughty.

Rightly or wrongly de-acts are going to be quietly traded individual to individual for decades to come.  The EU have got into a panic over sloppy eastern European deactivation standards for modern weapons and applied a blanket regulation, that may not even be possible to achieve on some of the older stuff.  If they make the costs of re-working too expensive then hundreds more will simply disappear, only to re-emerge if the owner dies and the family don't know how to dispose of it, or they are discovered in some other way.

[pioneecorps]

 

Make you wonder, SMLE Co2 4.5 mm, BB firer £374.99, it looks like one but its not a FAC or a deact.

[593jones]

Interesting to see they haven't modelled it on the Mk III*  as  the replica manufacturers did.  Wonder what the build quality is like.

[4thGordons]

33 minutes ago, 593jones said:

Interesting to see they haven't modelled it on the Mk III*  as  the replica manufacturers did.  Wonder what the build quality is like.

 

It is a bit odd -- Perhaps intended to be a MkI*** (but modified - looks like lots of the rifle supplied to Ireland in the 20s)

Early rear sight protectors (built into handguard), no charger bridge (but sliding guide on bolt head) Rear long range peep but no dial?

Chris

[593jones]

Checking out the old interweb I found another, very similar CO2 Lee Enfield, but this one has the dial sight.  The manufacturer is not given on the site, but it does look very similar.  https://www.sportsguns.co.uk/air-rifles-uk/cotwo/rufhjhsdkjabncb/leesenfield

[MikeyH]

Seem to recall around twenty or more years ago, genuine MK 4 Lee Enfields being converted to CO2, by a company in Birmingham.

 

Mike.

Edited 1 April , 2018 by MikeyH

[593jones]

1 hour ago, MikeyH said:

Seem to recall around twenty or more years ago, genuine MK 4 Lee Enfields being converted to CO2, by a company in Birmingham.

 

Mike.

 

I wonder what the legal position of those would be now.

[peregrinvs]

You’re thinking of the Saxby & Palmer / Brocock air cartridge system. They were effectively banned in 2003 after some instances of scumbags turning revolvers into live firearms. In an echo of the current situation with deacts, the law was carefully framed so that the owners were shafted but without being entitled to compensation.

[MikeyH]

14 minutes ago, peregrinvs said:

You’re thinking of the Saxby & Palmer / Brocock air cartridge system. They were effectively banned in 2003 after some instances of scumbags turning revolvers into live firearms. In an echo of the current situation with deacts, the law was carefully framed so that the owners were shafted but without being entitled to compensation.

 

peregrinvs,

 

Yes, I can now recall the name.  Think they were sold via. World Wide Arms.

 

Mike.

Edited 2 April , 2018 by MikeyH

[pioneecorps]

Not seen the Co2 SMLE yet, but I'm thinking their using stock photos off the internet to show, reason, the one I have shown different to the one in 593jones link.

 

Regards

Gerwyn