More bad news from Europe on De-act Bolt action rifles

[P.B.]

Gerwyn and Mike

 

Many thanks for your replies on the CO2 MkVI.......it makes me nostalgic for Sunday mornings plinking away with my Webley Tempest!

 

All the best

 

Paul.

[andy2014]

Has anyone any details about how to get an item re-deactivated to the 2016 regulations so the item can be sold privately?

Where to go?

Costs etc?

Thanks 

[peregrinvs]

I know D&B Militaria do it. I expect most of the major deact dealers will.

[ShtLE303]

Mind if a fellow firearms enthusiast from the US jumps in here?

I was born and raised in Georgia, and have been around firearms all my life...I'm also an incurable 'Anglophile'. I love the UK, can't wait to get back. The history is amazing, the people I have met there have always been gracious beyond words. It absolutely turns my stomach when I read stuff like what I've read here. I understand the mayor of London has now got a hard on for knives. I hope you guys can stem the tide of further idiocy when it comes to deacts. I mean, how much more does a deact have to be deacted??

If anyone is ever in Georgia, let me know..we have lots of ranges, and I have a bunch of milsurps that love to be shot!

 

[593jones]

I've just received a catalogue from a well known dealer which states that the law re deactivation will change from June 28th this year.  It goes on to say 'the major changes are for bolt action rifles, semi-auto pistols and revolvers.  After June 2l8th, these cannot be produced with dry-firing or cycling actions.'

 

This is the first time I have seen a date specified, apart from T8Hants post, which started this thread.  I've looked at the Deactivated Weapons Association site but there is no mention of it there, or, indeed, of any changes to be put into law.

 

 

[Gunner Bailey]

On 18/04/2018 at 04:02, ShtLE303 said:

. I hope you guys can stem the tide of further idiocy when it comes to deacts. I mean, how much more does a deact have to be deacted??

 

 

I understand that the next step from Brussels is that anyone who even thinks about a gun will be arrested and sent for re-education at a labour camp near Breendonk in Belgium.

 

Meanwhile I'm off the buy a copy of 1984 to keep ahead of developments.

[MikB]

1 hour ago, Gunner Bailey said:

 

...

Meanwhile I'm off the buy a copy of 1984 to keep ahead of developments.

 

Best conceal that by swapping the covers for Lady Chat or 50 Shades or suchlike. The time may come when you won't wanna be caught with Orwell by the Thought Police... 

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Gunner Bailey said:

 

I understand that the next step from Brussels is that anyone who even thinks about a gun will be arrested and sent for re-education at a labour camp near Breendonk in Belgium.

 

Meanwhile I'm off the buy a copy of 1984 to keep ahead of developments.

 

     Regret that there are those- which means me- who believe that, given the increasing use of re-activated firearms in criminal activity,  the regulations are nowhere near tight enough. Excellent though Orwell's 1984 is, it is not strong on it's narrative about gun crime.   While I have some sympathy for collectors of militaria, the abuse of de-acts by others means that  a policy of "whatever it takes" to reduce this trend MUST apply, It is much better to be a frustrated collector than a dead passer-by. One of my former customers as a booksellers- a distinctly strange human being (for other reasons) was jailed earlier this month for holding a number of firearms and several hundred rounds of live ammunition. The price of being largely a safe society without guns is that measures MUST be very strict indeed against ANY form of access to guns.

[593jones]

 

    One of my former customers as a booksellers- a distinctly strange human being (for other reasons) was jailed earlier this month for holding a number of firearms and several hundred rounds of live ammunition.

How does this relate to the laws regarding deactivated firearms?  Unless you are suggesting that individual had deacts which he subsequently reactivated, then it is quite irrelevant.

[Guest]

It's relevant when I see the number of reports of guns being supplied  for criminal purposes by "collectors" or "reputable dealers"

[Gunner Bailey]

 

     Regret that there are those- which means me- who believe that, given the increasing use of re-activated firearms in criminal activity,  the regulations are nowhere near tight enough. Excellent though Orwell's 1984 is, it is not strong on it's narrative about gun crime.   While I have some sympathy for collectors of militaria, the abuse of de-acts by others means that  a policy of "whatever it takes" to reduce this trend MUST apply, It is much better to be a frustrated collector than a dead passer-by. One of my former customers as a booksellers- a distinctly strange human being (for other reasons) was jailed earlier this month for holding a number of firearms and several hundred rounds of live ammunition. The price of being largely a safe society without guns is that measures MUST be very strict indeed against ANY form of access to guns.

I totally disagree with you.

 

The number of reactivated UK spec deacts is virtually nil. The deacts from Eastern Europe are suspect and the Charlie Hebdo gunmen did not use deacts they used minimally modified AK47 which were made for the film industry and were not strictly deacts as they could still fire blank rounds and with a barrel change (conveniently from the same country) could be returned to full firearm status.

 

I have seen my local gunsmith deactivate guns to the UK spec. The firearm is destroyed. To reactivate it you need every pressure bearing part, barrel, receiver, bolt etc to be renewed. The only parts untouched are the wood or grips. Yes pressure bearing parts can be made by very skilled engineers, but if they want to make their own guns, they could do.

 

Also there is no common sense to these laws. Has anyone ever tried to use a WW1 Vickers on a tripod in a crime? No, Has anyone gone into a bank with a WW1 or WW2 SMLE / No 4, No.

 

Historic weapons pre 1945 should be automatically excluded (almost parallel with Belgian firearms laws).

 

While this farce is going on people are being arrested almost weekly in SE England smuggling REAL guns in from mainly eastern europe, which is where the government's real effort should be.

 

Most people in the UK have never heard a real firearm fired in their lives except for the noise of clay pigeon shooting in the countryside.

 

The whole thing is a nonsense and totally out of proportion to the real problem..

 

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Gunner Bailey said:

Historic weapons pre 1945 should be automatically excluded

 

    WW2 were generally pretty effective at killing people- just look at the casualty figures. What do you think they died of? Ingrowing toe-nails?

 

Governments cannot fancy-foot around with what is the most serious  public order and safety matter. There is no point whatever saying the MAJORITY of weapons come in new from Eastern Europe, which  provides former Soviet bloc armaments of all sorts. If there is ANY- (NAVAL  SIGNAL REPETITION: ANY)  problem AT ALL with de-acts coming back into use, then ANY measure to stop it must  be sensible.  

     Time after time after time-where do SOME of these weapons come from? - over-zealous collectors going bent.

I cannot agree with you.  Any measures to restrict guns in circulation,of whatever provenance are to be welcomed by the vast majority of the populace.

 

      I am used to gun controls in another European country- France. My "ex" is French. Both my sons shoot when in France with the local gun club (where there side arms are lodged) and go shooting with the military club at Mailly, the French equivalent of Salisbury Plain. My mother-in-law is currently the President of the local gun club (Though she wouldn't need a weapon to frighten most people anyway) .  France seems more "liberal" in it's rules on the possession of guns. But it is tough on illegals.

 

      Laws are changed  for a reason. Ruffled feathers are better than casualties.

[T8HANTS]

In the not too distant future if the proposed law is not amended you will not be able to buy any form of blade through the post, -  this is apparently to stop children stabbing each other.

However carpenters will no longer be able to buy any of their tools, chisels, saws, plane blades either,  postal razor blades may well be banned, as the wording is so vague.

The point being that it will not stop the stabbings, screw drivers are a grey area, as are long nails and sharpened pencils used in the right way can still be lethal.  The politicians thrash about trying to be seen to be 'doing something', the law abiding loose their rights and suffer financial penalties way beyond any 'fine' that would be imposed by a court and the hand gun shootings continue, the stabbings will continue and the criminals won't notice.

[593jones]

It's relevant when I see the number of reports of guns being supplied  for criminal purposes by "collectors" or "reputable dealers"

 

But are these guns which are being supplied live firearms, subject to sections 1 or 2 of the Firearms Act?  If they are, then, again, your point is irrelevant to the discussion.  If they are deactivated to the standards applied in the UK, then they are totally incapable of being reactivated.  I have several, and can state that no-one, repeat, no-one could reactivate them to be live firearms.  As for your point about laws being changed for a reason, see T8HANTS post: ' The politicians thrash about trying to be seen to be 'doing something'.

[peregrinvs]

I think there may be some confusion here between criminal reactivation of UK deactivated guns (fairly rare I believe) and criminal misuse of live unlicensed Section 58 (obsolete caliber) guns which has sadly become more common.

Edited 23 July , 2018 by peregrinvs

[Gunner Bailey]

On 23/07/2018 at 16:55, peregrinvs said:

I think there may be some confusion here between criminal reactivation of UK deactivated guns (fairly rare I believe) and criminal misuse of live unlicensed Section 58 (obsolete caliber) guns which has sadly become more common.

 

One of the reasons criminals have started to use obsolete calibre and antique weapons is that UK spec deacts cannot be re-actvated without basically acquiring live parts for a whole gun. It's difficult, if not impossible. This is why criminal mainly use smuggled guns from eastern europe.

 

 

    WW2 were generally pretty effective at killing people- just look at the casualty figures. What do you think they died of? Ingrowing toe-nails?

Don't be silly.

 

Quote

 

  Any measures to restrict guns in circulation,of whatever provenance are to be welcomed by the vast majority of the populace.
 

 

Wrong again. Most people are not concerned with gun crime as it mostly affects criminals. They are more worried about hoodies with knives and the lives of their young relatives.

 

If you look at the gun statistics pre Hungerford when rifle and pistol shooting was much more common, the rate of gun crime was lower then than it is now. Smuggled arms from eastern europe is the main cause of gun crime in the UK and in it's most extreme saw two policewomen killed with soviet grenades in Manchester.

 

Shooting seems to be a hobby that you are happy with in France but the British must of course be denied it in some masochistic self harming way.

 

Pistol and rifle ownership is allowed all across europe but the UK government has had a long term policy to remove all firearms from the population, this was caused by the 'Irish problem' and the anti gun policy has existed since the 1920's. What is happening now is not only illogical but it is also ineffective as a way of controlling gun crime. It is also going to cost jobs across the UK as what was a thriving market dries up.

 

Meanwhile in Belgium any citizen can own a fully live pre 1945 firearm without a certificate as long as the do not have ammunition for it. Mad or what?

 

UK and European gun laws are on a level with the Ministry of Silly Walks.

 

 

 

[Guest]

  5 hours ago, GUEST said:

 

    WW2 were generally pretty effective at killing people- just look at the casualty figures. What do you think they died of? Ingrowing toe-nails?

Don't be silly.

 

I am not-some of the most efficient weapons ever made were produced before 1945.

 

On 23/07/2018 at 18:13, Gunner Bailey said:

Quote

 

  Any measures to restrict guns in circulation,of whatever provenance are to be welcomed by the vast majority of the populace.
 

 

Wrong again. Most people are not concerned with gun crime as it mostly affects criminals. They are more worried about hoodies with knives and the lives of their young relatives.

 

   Up to a point Lord Copper. Yes, there is a lot of concern about knife crime. BUT it is not now, nor ever will be, a justification to say that there is a bigger problem in another area, leave me alone.

   De-acts? yes-difficult but not impossible  I have known it done-in an engineering factory,done at lunchtimes to pass the time. De-atcs also provide a base stock of the right metals- quite a number of "home-mades" fail because they use soft steel. Any part of a small arm that is damaged or removed to de-act can be made again.

    Yes, it's a drop in the ocean.  Fine-I sympathise with your plight as a collector. I share your concern that it is not the main target. But, yes, anything that reduces any form of gun use/misuse in the UK is fine by me.

 

[Gunner Bailey]

. But, yes, anything that reduces any form of gun use/misuse in the UK is fine by me.

 

Yes but a Deact is not a gun. It's an EX gun and is irrelevant to most gun crime.

 

It would be better to ban 3D printers.

[Gunner Bailey]

 

I am not-some of the most efficient weapons ever made were produced before 1945.

 

 

Yes but can you quote me ONE example of a MG34 / MP40 / P38 etc being reactivated from a UK spec deact. No, because there never has been one.

 

Most of the reactivations have been based on East European / Russian guns, mainly with parts illegally imported or remade.

[T8HANTS]

There is one more point, if I understand the current proposals correctly (and I may be mistaken) in the very near future, all magazine rifles held on FAC will be restricted to single shot, their magazines will be fixed and restricted, so all the legally held Enfields, Mausers etc will be butchered in order to reduce non existent bolt action rifle crime. I think they are going to called 'especially dangerous firearms' so the public react in a positive way to the new restrictions and those who's complain will be regarded as anti-social.

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Gunner Bailey said:

Yes but can you quote me ONE example of a MG34 / MP40 / P38 etc being reactivated from a UK spec deact. No, because there never has been one.

 

    No I cannot- Not the weapon of choice on the streets. A look at US sites shows it can be done quite easily (By USs tandards of DEACT)-  Little point in doing it, I freely concede-it.s rate of fire means that munitions would be more the problem than the hardware

[Guest]

  I find the NABIS open policy document of November 2017 quite useful and interesting-here are the headings of it's main points. As it seems that "deacts" of yesteryear may be a problem, it seems sensible to me to tighten the rules all round.

 

Key points

 Deactivated weapons are largely indistinguishable from those capable of firing.

 Many deactivated weapons will have a proof mark, but the weapon may still be capable of firing

.  Proof house marks are an evidential provision only.

 Firearms deactivated by other means (without proof house marks) may no longer fulfil the definition of a firearm and thus no longer require domestic authority to possess/acquire/sell etc

.  Depending upon when they were deactivated, some weapons are more easily reactivated than others.

 Some reactivations only require readily available tools.  Reactivation can be carried out almost anywhere

.  Section 21 of the Firearms Act 1968 does not apply to properly deactivated weapons

.  It is still possible to commit an offence under the Firearms Act 1968 with a deactivated weapon.

[ss002d6252]

Quote

It would be better to ban 3D printers.

And take away one of the my hobbies The issues regarding 3d printers and weapons are certainly another talking point however.

 

Craig

[Dave66]

Life is precious, and one death is one too many. But, passing a few laws aren't going to stop the carnage on our streets, and if somebody wants to kill they will take the easiest route. I only have two deactivated iconic weapons from a  period of our history that was unimaginable in our modern world...both of which are just large paperweights now with no chance of ever being made to fire. 

Perhaps we should look at the other reasons for the increase in needless loss of life and start to take action, given the fact that cars and vans can now be used in acts of terror, the objects they use are merely a tool that their warped minds use, with properly deactivated weapons very low on the list.

I would take my hat off, and support any M.P., from whatever party, that tries to tackle the rear social and cultural problems that are the main cause of our countries problems.

 

Dave.

 

 

 

[Dave66]

3 minutes ago, David Filsell said:

In this, like many 'issues , it seems to me that the large pool of public wisdom and knowledge is totally  ignored time and time again by the regulations makers.

 

Couldn't agree more, easiest and cheapest option all the time in this modern world!