L/Sgt Patrick O'Keeffe 1052

[Dombyrne]

I'm on the trail of my Great Uncle, Lance Sergeant Patrick O'Keeffe (reg no 1052), KIA on 22nd March 1918, whilst in the 2nd Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers. My research has been the work of over 20 years! I'm at a place where I'm just not sure where else to go to finish compiling his story but I wanted to give it my best shot before the 100th anniversary of his death. Essentially I'm just doing what most people researching relatives in the Great War do, trying to pin down what his movements were during his time in France, was action he was involved in, where he was when he was killed and anything else I can find out about him. SO here's what I know.....

 

Killed in action on 22^nd March 1918 serving with the 2^nd Battalion Royal Munster Fusiliers. Now I know fair bit about the doings of 2RMF in the war and I know that they were positioned at Malassise Farm at the time Patrick died and I also know he is commemorated on the Pozieres memorial and has no known grave. The CWGC show scant details – enlisted in Liverpool, son of James and Mary O’Keeffe of Cork, aged 36. 

 

 Born on July 20 1879 – Baptised 25 July 1879 at St Peter & St Pauls Cork - according to birth and baptism records. – why would he lie about his age at enlistment? he was actually 38 at time of death, not 36.

Resident in Drawbridge Street Cork

Parents James & Mary (Nee Delea) O’Keeffe

1901 Census show Patrick living at 9 Lovers Walk with Mary (mother Aged 46, shopkeeper) and Bridget (aged 18).

 

Can’t find on 1911 census

 

Seems to have left Ireland in 1904 to travel to America - record of a Partrick O’Keeffe emigrating to Philadelphia in August 1904, aged 25, which fits age wise. Boat is called Merion leaving from Queenstown. Dominion Star Line.

 

Possibly ended up in Canada (Censes records of Patrick O’Keeffe?)

 

Seems to have come back from Canada in (November 1914) – I have found a record of a Patrick O’Keeffe returning to Liverpool from Canada (Montreal) on 16 Nov 1914. The age shown is wrong, but I’ve got a feeling that it’s my man. On the same boat where a fair number of the Canadian Expeditionary Force.

 

Enlisted at Liverpool - fits with above

 

Joined 9^th Battalion RMF – Cork battalion. I think he will have enlisted directly into this Battalion

Posted to ‘D’ company

Regimental Number 1052

 

Arrived France 20/12/15

Wrote will on Jan 4^th 1016

Promoted to Lance Corporal 5/1/16

Promoted to Corporal 24/1/16

Promoted to Lance Sargent 1/3/16

On Leave (to Ireland?) 16/5/16 – 24/5/16

 

9th battalion disbanded on May 31^st

 

‘D’ Company became ‘D’ company 8^th RMF. Was listed as wounded in The Times of October 1918, so whilst still with 8RMF

 

8^th Battalion disbanded in Nov 1916 – wholly absorbed in 1^st Battalion RMF

 

Dies on 22^nd March in 2RMF.

 

What I’d like to know……

 

• Do we know the date on which he enlisted?
• How and when does he get from 9RMF to 2RMF (I know 9RMF got absorbed by 1RMF in November 1916, so how did he get from 1RMF to 2 RMF?)?
• What companies was he in (helps to establish what actions he took part in and what happened to him on March 21 & 22 1918)
• Why is his army number 1052 – it’s out of kilter with other volunteer’s numbers in any of the K2 Battalions. Does it indicate that he was a reservist?
• What can we learn from this army number?
• Are there any other records of him other than medal roll?
• Can we pin down a grave from the reference given in the will document (attached), ‘buried at one of the local ………..?’

 

I'm attaching some records showing where I have found much of the above data. Just need help moving on from here!

O'KeeffeP_E739952.pdf

[Dombyrne]

Anyone able to help with this?

 

[ss002d6252]

The war gratuity of £21 10s (gross) was paid for 43 months service so this indicates enlistment during the month from 23 Aug 1914.

9th Bn seem to have used a fresh war time numbering sequence so this would fit with the date and the low number.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

To narrow the enlistment period;
#1046 was allocated 8 Sep 14
#1055 was allocated 14 Sep 14

so #1052 should be between these two days.

Craig

Edited 24 March , 2018 by ss002d6252

[roughdiamond]

One observation and that is his Medal card is for the 1914-15 Star only, there is no reference for his War or Victory medals and I can't find a corresponding card for those.

 

Sam

[Dombyrne]

Craig firstly apologies for the lack of airtime; just started a new job so not had much time! Your post is very interesting as up to now I'd thought that Patrick was on a boat returning from Canada in November 1914 and that he more or less gone straight from the boat to the enlistment office. So now i need to revisit why he enlisted in Liverpool! Many thanks for the info though....where did you get it from?

On 24/03/2018 at 20:34, roughdiamond said:

One observation and that is his Medal card is for the 1914-15 Star only, there is no reference for his War or Victory medals and I can't find a corresponding card for those.

 

Sam

SAm, I always assumed that there was no war or victory medals as he died before the end of the war - is that an incorrect assumption?

 

[ss002d6252]

On 02/05/2018 at 22:05, Dombyrne said:

Craig firstly apologies for the lack of airtime; just started a new job so not had much time! Your post is very interesting as up to now I'd thought that Patrick was on a boat returning from Canada in November 1914 and that he more or less gone straight from the boat to the enlistment office. So now i need to revisit why he enlisted in Liverpool! Many thanks for the info though....where did you get it from?

Liverpool would be spot on for a man getting off a boat from Canada - he may well have done what many men did and jump on a boat home. If he got on a boat relatively quickly he could be home in a week or so.
 

Quote

 

I always assumed that there was no war or victory medals as he died before the end of the war - is that an incorrect assumption?

 

 

 

A man who died before the end of the war was still entitled to the medals - I can't see the entry for them but there should be one somewhere (unless he was accidentally missed from the rolls)

Craig

Edited 13 May , 2018 by ss002d6252

[RussT]

It seems that the RMF VM/BWM medal rolls are in surname (& then first name) alphabetical order.

 

There are 4 consecutive pages with the surname O'Keefe listed but he does not appear on any of them. The page listing O'Keefe with the first names between John & Robert (including a single Patrick) is shown below for information. Unless there is another roll somewhere, it looks like he got missed.

 

 

 

Russ

 

[Dombyrne]

Interesting..does that mean that I can claim them now?!

 

[ss002d6252]

2 minutes ago, Dombyrne said:

Interesting..does that mean that I can claim them now?!

 

Very unlikely. The MOD will re-issue medals where there was proof of them being issued and being returned undelivered but they won't get involved in determining if a man should have had medals and wasn't, for some reason, issued them (presumably this stance is because the loss of records means entitlement cannot now be fully assessed.)

Craig

[Dombyrne]

1 minute ago, ss002d6252 said:

Very unlikely. The MOD will re-issue medals where there was proof of them being issued and being returned undelivered but they won't get involved in determining if a man should have had medals and wasn't, for some reason, issued them (presumably this stance is because the loss of records means entitlement cannot now be fully assessed.)

Craig

Thanks again Craig. Think I might just write anyway, as his 1915 star was returned as well I think.

[ckop4]

From the Cork Constitution newspaper - (Cork Constitution 25/3/1919) – ROLL OF HONOUR – O'KEEFFE – March 22, 1918, killed in action in France (previously reported missing), Patrick (Pa), Sergeant, Royal Munster Fusiliers (formerly of South African Mounted Police), of St. Mary’s Road, Cork; deeply regretted by his mother, sisters and brothers. RIP

[clk]

Hi,

 

It looks like his sister (?) hoped that he'd been taken PoW and made an enquiry to the Red Cross.

 

 

I did wonder if 'soeur' might be a medical or religious sister, rather than his actual sister.

 

Regards

Chris

[Dombyrne]

Just now, clk said:

Hi,

 

It looks like his sister (?) hoped that he'd been taken PoW and made an enquiry to the Red Cross.

 

 

I did wonder if 'soeur' might be a medical or religious sister, rather than his actual sister.

 

Regards

Chris

Well I never! Where did you find this? This is his sister (Ann, I think) - she worked for the Aga Khan in Paris I'm told! There is a family rumour that she tried to get him out of the front line at some point using the Aga Khan's influences. This is great! Thanks.

[Dombyrne]

On 15/08/2018 at 11:38, ckop4 said:

From the Cork Constitution newspaper - (Cork Constitution 25/3/1919) – ROLL OF HONOUR – O'KEEFFE – March 22, 1918, killed in action in France (previously reported missing), Patrick (Pa), Sergeant, Royal Munster Fusiliers (formerly of South African Mounted Police), of St. Mary’s Road, Cork; deeply regretted by his mother, sisters and brothers. RIP

Only just seen this too - I really should check back more often! South African Mounted Police - I never knew!! The family rumour was that he'd gone to Canada to join the Canadian Mounties. I don't suppose there's any records of him in the South African Mounted Police or if I can see a digitised image of this newspaper?

[clk]

Hi,

 

5 minutes ago, Dombyrne said:

Where did you find this?

 

Link

 

Regards

Chris

[Dombyrne]

4 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi,

 

 

Link

 

Regards

Chris

Thanks Chris. This is really great. It's amazing; you spend years looking and every once in a while something comes out that stuns you! All this time I'd worked on the assumption that Patrick was in Canada before the war - because my Mother told me that! Now I know that it was South Africa! I can now go looking for him on Boats into Liverpool in 1914 and I can search Royal South African Mounted Police records too. But all I really want to know is what company he was in in 2RMF, how  and when he got wounded,etc. Don't suppose you are aware of where I could find out more? 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 13/05/2018 at 13:41, ss002d6252 said:

Very unlikely. The MOD will re-issue medals where there was proof of them being issued and being returned undelivered but they won't get involved in determining if a man should have had medals and wasn't, for some reason, issued them (presumably this stance is because the loss of records means entitlement cannot now be fully assessed.)

Craig

 

But surely being killed in France on 22/3/1918 and being commemorated by CWGC proves he was in a theatre of war, thus entitled to the BWM &VM?

And if there is no evidence of them ever having been issued, I would have thought they could be claimed.

 

[Dombyrne]

Just now, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

 

But surely being killed in France on 22/3/1918 and being commemorated by CWGC proves he was in a theatre of war, thus entitled to the BWM &VM?

And if there is no evidence of them ever having been issued, I would have thought they could be claimed.

 

I'm told that original medals were all destroyed some years ago - melted down and reused. the same source said they have successfully received replacement medals but only after a great deal of difficulty involving asking the local MP to get involved?!

 

[ss002d6252]

1 minute ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

 

But surely being killed in France on 22/3/1918 and being commemorated by CWGC proves he was in a theatre of war, thus entitled to the BWM &VM?

And if there is no evidence of them ever having been issued, I would have thought they could be claimed. 

  

I think the logic used would be that the current office isn't an expert on WW1 medals and as many of the original records have been lost there isn't proof that the man definitely qualified for the medals. It is likely he would have (and it was a clerical error) but there may well have been something in the now destroyed records which gave a good reason why the medal wasn't issued.

 

Craig

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Here's a thread (that I haven't recently read) about the MOD re-issuing returned medals:

 

[BillyH]

Unless I am hopelessly wrong, I am sure that ANYONE who qualified for a 1914/15 Star automatically qualified for the BWM + VM as well.

 

BillyH.

[Dombyrne]

I was advised by the head researcher at the Royal Irish Rifles Museum that as his 1915 medal was returned undelivered the war office probably took the decision not to send any other medals. This was he says, fairly common in Ireland at that time given the political situation. He say I can reclaim them - they would need to be specially made - but they have managed to do it for others - with a great deal of effort!

[corisande]

This looks like it is probably the sister's marriage

 

[Dombyrne]

Again - excellent stuff! Thanks.

10 minutes ago, corisande said:

This looks like it is probably the sister's marriage

 

Where did you find this?