5 Motor Machine Gun Battery research

[pjwmacro]

11 hours ago, ghchurcher said:

the total roster including untraced men is close to the '34 vacancies' that Geoff Smith noted as available i

Yet the establishment of a battery was closer to 60 (and more certainly for India).  Had the other 20-30 already been posted/selected for No5 Bty?

 

Regards, Paul 

[david murdoch]

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Yet the establishment of a battery was closer to 60 (and more certainly for India).  Had the other 20-30 already been posted/selected for No5 Bty?

 

Regards, Paul 

Paul. I'm populating battery roster spreadsheet. Should be looking for around 50 MGC and 10 ASC other ranks. Going by the Battery group photo has a head count of 60 including five officers. Have four original officers names,  so the older chap in centre may not be the Battery OC. Several in the back row have ASC cap badges. I will identify originals by their date of entry off the medal index cards - also appears a fair number of them are in a block of sequential  service numbers so useful to hunt "gap" numbers. They may have been slightly under that number at the start and then numbers made up. The photo shows six guns and three range finders so that equates with three sections.  There are additions/replacement noted in the War Diary - they have later date of entry and a gap of several weeks before showing up in the Battery. This fits in (with pattern seen elsewhere) with them being a batch  sent over to base depot and then posted out to 5th.

[david murdoch]

183 Horace Mark Tebbutt and 184 Walter Tebbutt were brothers who enlisted together 28/11/1914. I have them together at home on 1911 Census.

Horace became 200704 Tank Corps and Walter 201747 Tank Corps.  Have service record for Horace - shows he was transferred to Heavy Branch D Batt.  20/11/1916 right after the battery was disbanded, and then became 4th Tank Corps.

[pjwmacro]

39 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Paul. I'm populating battery roster spreadsheet. Should be looking for around 50 MGC and 10 ASC other ranks. Going by the Battery group photo has a head count of 60 including five officers. Have four original officers names,  so the older chap in centre may not be the Battery OC. Several in the back row have ASC cap badges. I will identify originals by their date of entry off the medal index cards - also appears a fair number of them are in a block of sequential  service numbers so useful to hunt "gap" numbers. They may have been slightly under that number at the start and then numbers made up. The photo shows six guns and three range finders so that equates with three sections.  There are additions/replacement noted in the War Diary - they have later date of entry and a gap of several weeks before showing up in the Battery. This fits in (with pattern seen elsewhere) with them being a batch  sent over to base depot and then posted out to 5th.

 

David

I reckon the big, older chap in the centre of this photo is Capt JE Alkin the battery OC.  See post id #10. Capt JE Alkin (in car).  The original of this photo in the Motorcycle also lists Alkin as the battery CO - although, admitedly, it doesn't specifically highlight him as being in the photo.

Regards, Paul

[david murdoch]

Paul. Stand corrected - that has to be Alkin right enough. Presumably the other four are the 2OC and three section officers.

[pjwmacro]

7 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Paul. Stand corrected - that has to be Alkin right enough. Presumably the other four are the 2OC and three section officers.

David I would assume so.  But I have no means of knowing which is which.  BSM AJ Palmer is the last seated figure 3 to Alkins left (looking at the photo), assuming Geoffrey Churcher has made the correct identification in his photos at post #25. Regards Paul

[rewdco]

Thank you very much for all the reactions! Some very interesting photographs and information in there!

 

I think we can positively identify some of the crew members... First of all, Captain J.E. Alkin, indeed he's the one in the middle of the group photograph. See also this picture from The MotorCycle:

 

 

And here's a better scan:

 

[rewdco]

Also in the two pictures above is Sergeant J. Cocker. This is another good photograph, with Cocker on the right, and an unknown soldier on the left:

 

 

The same men in the group photograph:

Edited 7 February , 2018 by rewdco

[rewdco]

More sergeants in this photograph: from left to right: Sergeant W.G. Tuck, Sergeant J. Cocker, QM Sergeant Thompson and Sergeant J.H. Pountney:

 

J. Cocker before the Great War:

 

And W.G. Tuck in 1912:

 

Pountney's identification is confirmed in a later article in The MotorCycle:

 

Another picture from the same photoshoot, Thompson and Pountney, both standing behind some unknown soldiers:

 

But if the identifications in these pictures are correct, I'm sorry to say that Geoffrey Churcher identified the wrong man as Major A.J. Palmer, it is in fact QM Sergeant Thompson:

 

 

 

Edited 7 February , 2018 by rewdco

[rewdco]

Here's a picture of Major A.J. Palmer, sitting behind on this outfit (Battery Sergeant Major Mann behind the handlebars). The caption that this is 10th Battery is of course an error!

 

Palmer's identification is more or less confirmed by this one:

 

 

 

Edited 7 February , 2018 by rewdco

[rewdco]

I only have this picture for the officers:

 

Alkin in the car, Lieut. R. Selwyn Payne, Second Lieut. C.W. Clarke, and Second Lieut. H.G. Meertins. Problem is: are the names of the officers on the motorcycles listed from left to right (which would be logical...), or from right to left (Alkin is at the extreme right, and his name is first in the list...) Anyway, in both cases, Second Lieut. C.W. Clarke would be the officer on the bike in the middle. I think I can identify all officers in the group photograph. From left to right in the photo above:

This must be Selwyn Payne (or Meertins?), sitting second to Alkin on the left in the group photograph:

 But I'm sure that this is Clarke, sitting second to Alkin on the right in the group photograph:

And this must be Meertins (or Selwyn Payne?), sitting next to Alkin in the group photograph:

 

 

 

 

Edited 8 February , 2018 by rewdco
new pictures added, plus text amended

[rewdco]

And I think that this is another "match" (although I don't have a name for this Sergeant...)

 

[rewdco]

In 2010 these photographs were for sale on eBay:

 

I made a bid on these, but unfortunately somebody had a bigger wallet than me...  Does anybody on this forum know who's the current custodian of these MMGB photographs...? 

 

Jan

[pjwmacro]

7 hours ago, rewdco said:

Pountney's identification is confirmed in a later article in The MotorCycle:

Jan the "chat with Pountney" article gives you another casualty name -   B Chambers - unless there is a confusion with RS Chambers casualty recorded in the war diary.

Paul

[rewdco]

Indeed Paul, this must have been a typo.

 

On the other hand, although S.R. Stebbing was listed in the original roster, he appears to have been a member of the 3MMGB when he was shot:

 

STEBBING, Gunner, Sydney Reginald. 181, 3rd Battery, Machine Gun Corps (Motors). Died of wounds received at Zonnebeke by maxim fire, the previous day, died 4th May, 1915. Age 21. Son of Edwin Robert and Annabella Rebecca Stebbing, of 100, Craven Road, Rugby. Born at 3rd October, 1893 in Springfield Terrace, Coventry. Resided at Coventry. Machine Tool Maker, Rudge Works. Enlisted 28th November 1915 at Coventry. Commemorated War Memorial Park. Grave Ref. II. D. 9. Hazebrouck Communal Cemetery, Nord, France.

 

This transfer may explain why his death isn't mentioned in the 5MMGB War Diaries.

 

Jan

[david murdoch]

Paul/Jan.

I've had Stebbing on my master list as 3rd MMG Battery (when he died). This came originally from CWGC and also notes 3rd on his soldier's effects entry. For some reason on the graves registration  he's listed as 2nd MMG.

 

[rewdco]

Some more information about two of the officers:

 

just found this on Wikipedia:

 

Richard Bethune Fripp Selwyn Payne (18 September 1885 – 1 February 1949) played first-class cricket for Somerset in one match in the 1906 season.^[1] He was born at Rangoon, now in Myanmar and died at Exmouth, Devon. In some sources, his third name is written as "Tripp"; in others, his last two names are hyphenated as "Selwyn-Payne".

Selwyn Payne's only first-class cricket came in the match against a feeble Hampshire at the United Services Ground, Portsmouth in 1906; he batted at No 10 in Somerset's only innings and made 15.^[2]

He was commissioned as a second lieutenant in the fourth battalion of the Somerset Light Infantry in 1907.^[3] Early in the First World War he was back in the Somerset Light Infantry in the seventh battalion, being promoted from temporary second lieutenant to temporary full lieutenant in October 1914.^[4] In November 1914 (though it was not gazetted correctly for four months), he was transferred from the Somerset Light Infantry to the Motor Machine Gun Service, which operated machine guns mounted on motorcycles.^[5] This division was transferred a year later to the bigger Machine Gun Corps and in 1916 Selwyn Payne is gazetted as a temporary captain within the Corps with seniority as a temporary lieutenant in the Somerset Light Infantry backdated retrospectively to September 1914.^[6] That appears to have been contradicted by a promotion to temporary captain within the Machine Gun Corps (Motor) backdated to March 1916 but not gazetted until 1919, when he was transferred to the Machine Gun Corps (Infantry) division.^[7] He left the army on 11 November 1919 and retained the rank of captain.^[8]

 

And this:

Edited 8 February , 2018 by rewdco

[rewdco]

And two more photographs, both showing Harold Hegan, although the two men don't look like the same person in my eyes...

[david murdoch]

 Gunner 172 Sidney Cornelius Hathaway. Commissioned 2nd Lt. Royal Flying Corps 27/12/1915. He was shot down and killed 12/1/1916. He was observer/air gunner with 11 Squadron.

 

Famous German ace Max Immelmann shot down 2nd Lieutenant Herbert Thomas Kemp and his observer 2nd Lieutenant Sidney Cornelius Hathaway from 11 Squadron RFC. They were on patrol in their Vickers FB5 (5460). When attacked both aircraft began to circle but Immelmann’s Fokker was able to turn tighter and got onto the tail and in the blind spot of the ‘Gunbus’, firing over 100 rounds at it. With the engine at the rear protecting the pilot, he only suffered a minor wound but Hathaway was killed. The F.B.5 caught fire in the air after their fuel tank was hit and Kemp hurriedly landed and was able to get out unharmed.

[delta]

Geoffrey 

Regarding the last photo, the Tank Museum use this in their story of Cyril Coles ( first tank gunner to be killed in action). Is there a date for when it was taken ?

[pjwmacro]

2 hours ago, delta said:

Geoffrey 

Regarding the last photo, the Tank Museum use this in their story of Cyril Coles ( first tank gunner to be killed in action). Is there a date for when it was taken ?

Stephen - wrong thread???  (I`m not clear which photo / post you are referring to?)  Paul

[delta]

Thanks Paul, will look elsewhere 

[IPT]

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Stephen - wrong thread???  (I`m not clear which photo / post you are referring to?)  Paul

 

I think @deltawas referring to the last photo in post #25, which appears to have belonged to Albert Tuxford Wadham, and claims to be Siberia Camp in 1915. Possibly, the month has been cropped off?

 

As he says, it also appears here - http://tank100.com/tankmen/cyril-coles/

 

 

[pjwmacro]

@IPT, @delta @ghchurcher

 

Thank you IPT, I think you are correct that Stephen is refering to Geoffrey's final photo in post #25. As you say - it looks as if the month has been cropped off, although I am puzzled it should be 1915 IIRC it wasn't until Apr 1916 that HB started directly transfering "voluntolds"' from MMGS, and moved from Siberia Bisley to Elveden.

 

And I curious as to why Geoffrey links the photo to Palmer?  And whether there is any link between AT Wadham and 5 MMG Bty- I haven't seen his name in any of the lists?

Regards, Paul

[ghchurcher]

2 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

@IPT, @delta @ghchurcher

 

And I curious as to why Geoffrey links the photo to Palmer?  And whether there is any link between AT Wadham and 5 MMG Bty- I haven't seen his name in any of the lists?

Regards, Paul

 I'm not sure where the link came from, but the image was given to me 30 years ago ! The photos in post #35 from the magazine seem pretty conclusive to me, which is good news.