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Remembered Today:

5 Motor Machine Gun Battery research


rewdco

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good evening,

 

here is a toothbrush that belonged to:

HUTTING William
No.9849: 2nd East Yorkshire 
No.8855: South Lancashire Regt.

No.176806: Machine Gun Corps (Motor Branch)

assigned at first sight in india

I had opened a subject about this soldier.

 

regards

 

michel

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  • 4 weeks later...

More than a month ago I missed an interesting photograph on Delcampe, due to a problem with my sniper. I contacted the seller, but obviously there was nothing he could do, the picture was sold. But last week I was contacted by the seller, the buyer had not paid yet, if I was still interested? Of course I was! This is how I have become the custodian of this picture after all!

 

I've done a 600DPI scan (that's all my scanner can do), here are two details. The bike and the Minerva.

 

Regards,

Jan

Schermafbeelding 2020-12-16 om 12.56.33.png

Schermafbeelding 2020-12-16 om 12.56.06.png

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If you compare the picture above with the picture below, it is easy to see how the side car was modified. But unfortunately it is impossible to work out if this motorcycle has a stirrup front brake or a dummy rim front brake (in other words, if this may have been one of the outfits from the mysterious second batch)...

 

 

Schermafbeelding 2020-12-16 om 18.39.08.png

Edited by rewdco
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"First World War: 

During the first days of the war, the Belgian Army had put in service 20 prototypes (5 in 7.65×53mm and 15 in .303) for the defense of Namur.
The United Kingdom officially adopted the Lewis gun in .303 British calibre for land and aircraft use in October 1915. The weapon was generally issued to the British Army's infantry battalions on the Western Front in early 1916 as a replacement for the heavier and less mobile Vickers machine gun.
" (source: wikipedia)
 
And on a Dutch WW1 forum (http://www.forumeerstewereldoorlog.nl/viewtopic.php?t=18901&sid=0bb59dbaa5888874f5f7c075cfe7e71a) I found out that the Lewis Gun was first produced in Belgium, from 1913 onwards.
 
The 5MMGB was disbanded in November 1916. According to the War Diaries "All motor cycles with side cars and Vickers machine guns returned to Rouen.” 
 
I can't prove it (yet), but I'm inclined to think that the second batch of Royal Enfield motorcycle combinations (according to the factory ledgers, 14 outfits were delivered to the “War Office” in June - July 1915) may have had the Belgian Army as a final destination... The fact that the outfit in my photograph was fitted with a Lewis Gun, and that it was parked close to a Minerva Armoured Car, and the fact that the Belgian Army had bought several contracts of 3HP Royal Enfields all make me think so... Any ideas anybody...?
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1 hour ago, rewdco said:

"First World War: 

During the first days of the war, the Belgian Army had put in service 20 prototypes (5 in 7.65×53mm and 15 in .303) for the defense of Namur.
The United Kingdom officially adopted the Lewis gun in .303 British calibre for land and aircraft use in October 1915. The weapon was generally issued to the British Army's infantry battalions on the Western Front in early 1916 as a replacement for the heavier and less mobile Vickers machine gun.
" (source: wikipedia)
 
And on a Dutch WW1 forum (http://www.forumeerstewereldoorlog.nl/viewtopic.php?t=18901&sid=0bb59dbaa5888874f5f7c075cfe7e71a) I found out that the Lewis Gun was first produced in Belgium, from 1913 onwards.
 
The 5MMGB was disbanded in November 1916. According to the War Diaries "All motor cycles with side cars and Vickers machine guns returned to Rouen.” 
 
I can't prove it (yet), but I'm inclined to think that the second batch of Royal Enfield motorcycle combinations (according to the factory ledgers, 14 outfits were delivered to the “War Office” in June - July 1915) may have had the Belgian Army as a final destination... The fact that the outfit in my photograph was fitted with a Lewis Gun, and that it was parked close to a Minerva Armoured Car, and the fact that the Belgian Army had bought several contracts of 3HP Royal Enfields all make me think so... Any ideas anybody...?

Probably right. Certainly the MMGS rapidly standardised on Clynos by mid 1915 and only the first few batteries had other makes (Enfields, Scotts ect.) Pretty sure  these the other batteries all converted to Clynos. Not sure if the Enfields of 5th MMG lasted until November 1916

Edited by david murdoch
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10 hours ago, rewdco said:

I've done a 600DPI scan (that's all my scanner can do), here are two details. The bike and the Minerva.

 

Thanks for sharing.

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There is no E-number on the petrol tank, so unless the bike has been repainted, this is not one of the 18 outfits from the first contract. 

 

And I had another look at the factory ledgers. All the motorcycles for the first contract (December 1914) have "War Office - London" filled in as "purchaser's name" and "address". But the 14 entries for the second contract (June - July 1915) only have "War Office" filled in... No address... So not necessarily the British War Office! 

 

I know that this is not conclusive, but I think that this could be more evidence for my theory that the second contract went to the Belgian Army...

 

Schermafbeelding 2020-12-17 om 19.13.23.png

Schermafbeelding 2020-12-17 om 19.09.37.png

Edited by rewdco
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Eureka! My eagle-eyed friend Richard Payne has just given me the information that I was looking for... Does this motorcycle have stirrup brakes, or dummy rim brakes? In other words: first contract or second contract? Well, although we can't see either the stirrup system or the dummy rim, we can clearly see the cable that actuates the dummy rim brake on the left hand side of the forks! So this is a second contract bike, and as there is no proof at all that these second contract bikes were ever used by a British Motor Machine Gun Battery, I consider this as more evidence for my Belgian Army theory. Thanks again Rich!

 

Schermafbeelding 2020-12-17 om 19.43.18.png

Edited by rewdco
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I have found more "proof" for my Belgian contract theory:

This article ("Les Motocyclettes à la Guerre", or "Motorcycles at War") was published in the June 6th 1915 issue of "Le Quotidien", a Belgian (censored) WW1 newspaper:

 

691082793_19150606LeQuotidien_1.png.8d421deae2781ccab66c074957cba45b.png

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"... You don't have to be a tactician to understand what great service the motorcycle can do for the outposts. Motorcyclists can be armed with revolvers, rifles and also light machine guns. Each army has at present on the battlefield motorcycles with machine guns, thus following the example of the Netherlands which in 1912 had already studied the issue and created motorcycle-machine guns. We perfected the idea and had the machine guns placed on a sidecar, adapted to the motorcycle. It goes without saying that this system prevails over that of the machine gun placed directly on the motorcycle. First of all, it doesn’t hinder the rider. When the machine gun needs to be put into action, there is no longer any need to stop and waste precious time carefully parking the motorcycle. 

 

As soon as the motorcycle stops, the shooting can begin and it still allows the retreat to be covered without danger, the machine gun being placed on a pivot. Fortunately, a sudden attack would be carried out by a company of motorcyclists rushing towards the enemy, surprised and frightened by the suddenness of the attack.
 
The rapid movements of a troop of motorcyclists make it possible to confuse the plans of the enemy and to open fire at different points, at short intervals, which gives the illusion of forces far superior to reality. As the fire of war today takes place at great distances, and these movements take place in covered terrain, it does not matter how loud, the engines will not be heard by the enemy.

 

In other cases, motorcyclists will carry out rapid and deadly fire from a ambush, in an attempt to stop the advance of the enemy; but if the enemy would outnumber them, they will return at full speed to the basis. ..."

 

The author (Marcel Gourmont) talks about the example of the Netherlands which in 1912 had already studied the issue and created motorcycle-machine guns. The pictures below show this attempt, based on a Motosacoche 6HP motorcycle. The Motosacoche by the way was using a Royal Enfield 6HP frame, fitted with their own M.A.G. 6HP engine.

 

1442762815_MotosacochewithDutchsoldiersKNIL2.jpg.7f794a2b59a3d77d8b7360102857fa2b.jpg1116667943_MotosacochewithDutchsoldiersKNIL1.jpg.1ad1a9d503560073c3c4261af00233d8.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 months later...

The picture below is currently for sale on an auction site. I know it's a long shot, but as the caption tells us that this is a Moto Mitrailleuse, and that the picture was taken in Nieuwpoort, April 1915, I'm pretty sure that this is another (poor) picture of one (or even two) of the Belgian contract outfits, as mentioned above. 

281_001.jpg.40e1106fe9cffd1059a4a4e93e0a4768.jpg

 

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13 hours ago, rewdco said:

The picture below is currently for sale on an auction site. I know it's a far shot, but as the caption tells us that this is a Moto Mitrailleuse, and that the picture was taken in Nieuwpoort, April 1915, I'm pretty sure that this is another (poor) picture of one (or even two) of the Belgian contract outfits, as mentioned above. 

281_001.jpg

There were 7 MMGS batteries in France/Flanders by end of April 1915. I can check the war diaries for clues to see if any of them are linked to Nieuwpoort at this time - certainly several of them were in Belgium then.

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Hello David,

 

To me, they look like Royal Enfield outfits (for as far as I can see in this very vague photograph...). The sidecar in the background even has a similar "shield" as the other Belgian outfit mentioned above.

 

The 5MMGB never came down to Nieuwpoort. But yes, I would be interested in what you find on the other batteries' diaries!

 

Regards,

Jan

Edited by rewdco
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  • 3 months later...

Nice picture of QM Sergeant Thompson, and a young lad who's name I do not know. The postcard was apparently posted from France. But judging by the background and the state of the outfit, I think that the photograph was still taken at Bisley Camp, shortly before departure to France, as it does already show the "improved" sidecar.

Regards,

Jan

061_001 kopie.jpg

061_002 kopie.jpeg

Edited by rewdco
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On 06/08/2021 at 18:49, rewdco said:

Nice picture of QM Sergeant Thompson, and a young lad who's name I do not know. The postcard was apparently posted from France. But judging by the background and the state of the outfit, I think that the photograph was still taken at Bisley Camp, shortly before departure to France, as it does already show the "improved" sidecar.

Regards,

Jan

061_001 kopie.jpg

061_002 kopie.jpeg

WOII William James Thompson 329 MMGS later 205373 Tank Corps (Company Sgt. Major).

Edited by david murdoch
service number correction.
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Unfortunately there is no number on the petrol tank of this motorcycle. At least not on the side that is visible here...

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On 07/08/2021 at 02:33, rewdco said:

Unfortunately there is no number on the petrol tank of this motorcycle. At least not on the side that is visible here...

Not sure when they actually put their own id numbers on the bikes - certainly from photos were stencilled on both sides of the petrol tanks. There are 5th Battery photos with and without numbers  - numbered bikes are certainly battery compliment , but some of the others could be training establishment bikes. Thompson appears in several of the previously posted photos and named in one in The Motorcycle. He can be seen wearing an "MG" patch. He is listed as being on the 56th Vickers class at Hythe in October/ November 1914 given as Sgt and his then unit  as 8th (Service) Battalion Royal West Kent Regiment. This battalion was only formed 12th September 1914, so he was either a regular transferred there as an NCO or a pre war regular who re enlisted.

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Edited by david murdoch
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  • 1 month later...

Looks as if there was an "official photo shoot" in Bisley for every Battery. Here's a Clyno equipped MMGB (don't know which one...) going through the 'shoot... Still looking for 5MMGB (Royal Enfield) pictures... :)

aaf402.jpeg

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Presume by 1939 same man as a machine gun inspector Birmingham? 

On 07/08/2021 at 01:21, david murdoch said:

WOII William James Thompson 329 MMGS later 205373 Tank Corps (Company Sgt. Major).

 

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12 minutes ago, rewdco said:

Looks as if there was an "official photo shoot" in Bisley for every Battery. Here's a Clyno equipped MMGB (don't know which one...) going through the 'shoot... Still looking for 5MMGB (Royal Enfield) pictures... :)

 

I think the vast majority of Battery and group photos were taken by the photographer from The Motorcycle. There seems to be three formats. Battery personnel, Battery in full parade order with equipment, or "drive by" shoots like this one - where the bikes would drive past slowly.  This photo likely  early  1916 as the MMG looks to be missing from the cap badges. 

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On 08/10/2021 at 22:49, rewdco said:

a Clyno equipped MMGB (don't know which one

Not much help for 5 MMG Enfields - but a marker for 22 Bty is a bike (probably a Clyno) with a propeller mascot on the front,

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Cleaned this photo up a bit. For sure 1916 onwards - as they are wearing plain MGC cap badges. Could be one of the several batteries remaining there who shipped out in February 1916 - wintertime by the look of the trees.

aaf402.jpeg.eb0fb1e2f0f32da6e72765a7259b599a.jpeg

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On 08/10/2021 at 18:12, Alisonmallen62 said:

Presume by 1939 same man as a machine gun inspector Birmingham? 

 

1939 register gives birth date as 12/5/1894  which would make him only  20 in those photos  - I think QM Sergeant Thompson would be a bit  older seeing as he was already Sergeant in November 1914. I've found a couple of William James Thompsons from the Birmingham area who fought in WW1 so could be one of those who later worked at  Birmingham Small Arms.

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Of course!  Apologies am in bed with covid and not concentrating on dates it seems!  

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  • 6 months later...
On 25/10/2019 at 18:17, david murdoch said:

Identified another member of 5th MMG not previously on the list.

Ernest (Ernie) William Hayward  MM,DCM. Hayward joined the Royal Horse and Field Artillery in 1914 and within a month had transferred to MMGS as Gunner 553 and  5th MMG Battery. His 14/15 Star Roll (Tank Corps) list him as having been 5th MMG, and his date of entry matches the date the battery went to France. He was transferred to No 11 Coy, D Battalion  in November 1916 when the battery was disbanded. He was actually on leave of absence in early November 1916 so joined them on his return. He was awarded the Military Medal while with 5th MMG in 1915 and in April 1917 the Distinguished Conduct Medal after an attack on the Hindenburg line near Bullecourt. He later renumbered 205595 Tank Corps, and ended the war as Staff Sergeant. He remained in the army and during World War II he served as Regimental Technical Adjutant at the Lulworth Gunnery School. Having joined the army as a private in 1914 he retired some 30-odd years later as a Captain.

 

e w hayward.jpg

Hayward dcm.jpg

Ernest (Ernie) Hayward was my wife's grandfather. Here is a piece I wrote about him in 2008 for our Ancestrty Family Tree:

"

Ernie (Ernest William) Hayward joined the Royal Horse and Field Artillery in 1914 and within a month had transferred to the 6th Bn Motor Machine Gun Corps because of his pre-war experience as a chauffeur and motor mechanic.

Four months later he was in France and took part in the fighting at Neuve Chappelle and the second Battle of Ypres. As a result of his action with the Heavy Machine Gun Corps he was awarded a Military Medal in 1915.

In April 1917 his gallantry was recognised by the award of a Distinquished Conduct Medal. As a member of D Battalion Tank Corps he gained his DCM after an attack on the Hindenburg line near Bullecourt. He displayed great gallantry in collecting a crew and his tank after it had been abandoned.

He took part in the Battle of Cambrai, the first occasion that tanks were used as a strategic rather than tactical force. Coincidentaly the 7th King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry supported the tanks at Cambrai and Ernie's son-in-law (Captain Robert Harding) was posted to the 7th KOYLI in India as part of that battalion's conversion to the 149th Royal Tank Regiment. 

Ernie's acts of courage were recognised by the award of a Card of Honour signed by General H J Elles, together with the right to wear the distinctive Brown, Red and Green (Through Mud and Blood to the Green fields beyond) whistle-cord of the Tank Corps.

He continued in the Tank Corps between the wars and during World War II he served as Regimental Technical Adjutant.

Having joined the army as a private in 1914 he retired some 30-odd years later as a Captain."

In fact he wasn't at Cambrai, he was back in the UK either at Brookwood  or Woll recovering from injuries received at Bullecourt.

Here is a photo of him with his section/battery at Brookwood, he is fith from the left next to combination E15. QMS Thompson is third from the left.

 

5 Coy MMGS with E W Hayward on this side of combo E15

 

Here he is with an unknown comrade on a M'cylce (Royal Enfield?) & sidecar combo.

 

E W Hayward and A.N.O 

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