9575 Sgt. George Smith (alias John Creevy) 2nd Bn. Royal Irish Rifles

[Trav]

I have finally uncovered my Grandfathers military past... well, a large part of it. 

 

I have in my possession his discharge certificates, from both the British Army and the Irish National Forces but I never found anything online relating to these anywhere else. However, recently (11/11/17) one of the online resources had a 'free access' day and I dug a little deeper. It would appear that he originally enlisted using and alias and was issued a different number (9575) from that on his discharge certificate (7006456). These numbers refer to his original regiment, the Royal Irish Rifles and the one he was discharged from, the Royal Ulster Rifles - this aspect was not really news to me.

 

Frustratingly, I came across this online reference and a copy of the attestation paper years ago, but as the records were filed incorrectly under 'John Fenton or Smith George Creevy' I didn't pursue it further. Luck and curiosity led me to access all the documents relating to this attestation paper on that open day and I discovered they do indeed relate to my Grandfather! The file is of his Discharge Documents and contains his complete army record. I hit the motherlode! -  family names and members that were previously unknown, the local village in Ireland, his enlistment date 1911 (not the 1914 on the Discharge Certificate that appears to have been re-written at a later date), a list of reprimands for various offences, e.g. sleeping in past reveille, rusty sword, late for parade etc.. His postings to Dover and Tidworth - meaning that both he and I served 7 miles apart, 70 years apart, and shot on the same ranges. References on these papers have allowed me to work out his battalion (2nd) and company (B), and the signatures on his conduct records have allowed me to read up on those officers he served with (Masters, Bell, Matthews-Donaldson, Charley, et al). There are also references to his 'physical marks' on the 'new' papers which are identical to those written on the Discharge Certificate, as is his trade, length of service etc... so I am absolutely sure it is the same person.

 

The Battalion war diaries have allowed me to track his progress in those first few weeks of the War, and a little extra reading and time with Google Earth has given me the Bn and coy locations for the battles at Mons and Caudry. It was at Caudry that he was wounded and captured. This was unknown in my family. It would seem that he was a POW for the entire duration of the War (in Germany) and, after being interned in Holland for a year, finally made it back to Ireland in 1919. So, he was a contemporary of Lucy (whose book I have now read) as they were both Corporals in 1914 (my grandfather was promoted to Sgt. on the 9th August just before they embarked for France on the 13th). I have also read Taylor's Book on the 2nd Battalion, which I have found a great resource.

 

I think I have filled in as many 'blanks' as I can, but what I would like to know is where he was a prisoner in Germany. I can find no record of him under either name as a POW. The same for his time in Holland, where there many camps? And if anyone knows how I can uncover any further details about his time in the Irish National Forces that would be great, once again I have found nothing online using the Irish Forces records.

 

Any pointers on these queries would be much appreciated.

 

'Quis Separabit' indeed! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 19 January , 2018 by Trav
document snipping added - names real and alias

[charlie962]

His ICRC record is there

 

 

Charlie

 

There is a card that follows on immediately after for a HG Smyth so you need to be careful which records are for your GF; the card I show above fits early capture and subsequent internment.

Edited 19 January , 2018 by charlie962

[Trav]

Thank you very much!

 

I did look there, perhaps it was the 'y' in Smyth that meant I got no results?

 

And the name Smith and that particular spelling of it is another story in itself!

[Trav]

I just wanted to say thanks again... your help has allowed me to find the camp he was a prisoner in when transferred to Holland. Giessen. I assume he would have been there for the duration of his incarceration. Would transfers have been recorded on the same card, or would / could there be others?

[charlie962]

Normally on same card but the clerks often got confused due to inaccuracies and transcription errors so you have to look round and about for misfiled record cards. But they may not exist !

 

I take it you followed the 3 refences quoted on this card.

Edited 20 January , 2018 by charlie962

[Trav]

On 20/01/2018 at 21:49, charlie962 said:

I take it you followed the 3 references quoted on this card.

 

I have now, thanks for your help once again.

 

Is there a way to 'work backwards' from a record I saved to my laptop ages ago? I seem to have stored it in my Grandfather's file, but it now makes no sense compared to the rest of the records I have seen and I can't seem to bring it up again when searching.

 

I believe it to be for 'John Creevy' (from a pension record) but it could be another soldier with the same name? If anything, I would just like to eliminate it (or not) from my files.

Edited 8 March , 2018 by Trav
update with new info'

[charlie962]

23 minutes ago, Trav said:

I believe it to be for 'John Creevy'

 

The document looks similar to those found on FindMyPast.

Presumably not your man. Its a John Creevy b 1897 from Dublin.

Here is the original.

 

Charlie

Edited 8 March , 2018 by charlie962

[Trav]

Thanks again Charlie

[Jimmy Taylor]

This is just a work-in-progress but hope it helps. If you can clarify or add to it that would be great.

 

Creevy 2/9575 Sgt John. Born at Patrick Street, Mullingar, Co. Westmeath, 29.4.1892, the son of Miss Mary Creevy, a servant. Present at the birth was Ellen Creevy. The 1901 Census shows him at 15 Patrick Street, Mullingar, the home of his widowed grandfather John Creevy. Enlisted at Athlone as George H. Smith in the Regular Army expressing a preference for the RE, 7.2.1911, age understated as 18 years. Clerk, 5 foot 6⅝ inches, 124 pounds, chest 32½–35 inches, blue eyes, brown hair, Roman Catholic. Parents John and Ellen at Gaybrook, Mullingar. He had sisters May and Agnes. Transferred on final approval to the RIR. 2nd Class education certificate at Belfast 14.3.1911. The 1911 Census shows him serving at Victoria Barracks, Belfast. To 2nd RIR 18.5.1911. L/Cpl 14.12.1911. Passed exam for promotion to Cpl 8.8.1912. Cpl 15.1.1913. Sgt 9.8.1914. To BEF with B Coy, 2nd RIR, 14.8.1914. Wounded and POW at Caudry, 26.8.1914. NOK was his father John at Gaybrook. Sent to Limburg and Giessen. To Holland 1.3.1918. Temporarily transferred to the BEF from Holland 28.2.1919. Repatriated 4.3.1919. To Irish Command Discharge Centre 30.4.1919. To Class B Reserve 27.5.1919. Character very good. Address c/o M. Quinn, 11 Patrick Street, Mullingar. To Army Reserve 27.5.1919. Address c/o P.O. Tullyhogue, Co. Tyrone. Number and name changed to 7006456 Sgt John Creevy. Discharged 24.12.1920. Bronchitis and varicose veins. Address Kilbeggan, Co. Westmeath. Served as VR3585 BQMS John Creevy with the Army School of Instruction, National Army, Irish Free State, 8.7.1922 to 13.8.1924. He was then 5 foot 8¾ inches. Character very good. Married Mary Teresa Murphy at Manchester Register Office, 2.12.1926. At that time he stated he was John Francis Creevy, a speciality salesman, and that his father was John Fenton Creevy, a barrister-at-law. Moved to Thorne, South Yorkshire, where he was a coal miner. Children were Seán (1927), Liam (1928–29) and Máire Teresa (1935). Family name changed to Fenton-O’Creevy. The 1939 Register shows him, a clerk, at 93 East Road, Longsight, Manchester. He gave his date of birth as 30.4.1893. He was a retired departmental manager when he died at East Road from broncho pneumonia 2.8.1974. His widow died 6.9.1989. Southern Cemetery, Chorlton-cum-Hardy, Manchester. Additional information provided by his grandson Stephen Harry.

 

[Trav]

9 hours ago, Jimmy Taylor said:

Creevy 2/9575 Sgt John. Born at Patrick Street, Mullingar, Co. Westmeath, 29.4.1892, the son of Miss Mary Creevy, a servant. Present at the birth was Ellen Creevy. The 1901 Census shows him at 15 Patrick Street, Mullingar, the home of his widowed grandfather John Creevy. Enlisted at Athlone as George H. Smith in the Regular Army expressing a preference for the RE, 7.2.1911, age understated as 18 years. Clerk, 5 foot 6⅝ inches, 124 pounds, chest 32½–35 inches, blue eyes, brown hair, Roman Catholic. Parents John and Ellen at Gaybrook, Mullingar. He had sisters May and Agnes. Transferred on final approval to the RIR. 2nd Class education certificate at Belfast 14.3.1911. The 1911 Census shows him serving at Victoria Barracks, Belfast. To 2nd RIR 18.5.1911. L/Cpl 14.12.1911. Passed exam for promotion to Cpl 8.8.1912. Cpl 15.1.1913. Sgt 9.8.1914. To BEF with B Coy, 2nd RIR, 14.8.1914. Wounded and POW at Caudry, 26.8.1914. NOK was his father John at Gaybrook. Sent to Limburg and Giessen. To Holland 1.3.1918. Temporarily transferred to the BEF from Holland 28.2.1919. Repatriated 4.3.1919. To Irish Command Discharge Centre 30.4.1919. To Class B Reserve 27.5.1919. Character very good. Address c/o M. Quinn, 11 Patrick Street, Mullingar. To Army Reserve 27.5.1919. Address c/o P.O. Tullyhogue, Co. Tyrone. Number and name changed to 7006456 Sgt John Creevy. Discharged 24.12.1920. Bronchitis and varicose veins. Address Kilbeggan, Co. Westmeath. Served as VR3585 BQMS John Creevy with the Army School of Instruction, National Army, Irish Free State, 8.7.1922 to 13.8.1924. He was then 5 foot 8¾ inches. Character very good. Married Mary Teresa Murphy at Manchester Register Office, 2.12.1926. At that time he stated he was John Francis Creevy, a speciality salesman, and that his father was John Fenton Creevy, a barrister-at-law. Moved to Thorne, South Yorkshire, where he was a coal miner. Children were Seán (1927), Liam (1928–29) and Máire Teresa (1935). Family name changed to Fenton-O’Creevy. The 1939 Register shows him, a clerk, at 93 East Road, Longsight, Manchester. He gave his date of birth as 30.4.1893. He was a retired departmental manager when he died at East Road from broncho pneumonia 2.8.1974. His widow died 6.9.1989. Southern Cemetery, Chorlton-cum-Hardy, Manchester. Additional information provided by his grandson Stephen Harry.

 

 

Thanks for that Jimmy. I'm still working through things at present, indeed does it ever end?

 

I've highlighted some points above:-

• I know he enlisted as George Smith, later to change to Smyth. But the only reference to that 'H' I have found is on a Red Cross record when he is interned in Holland in 1918, nothing earlier? I believe he was named on a list of those who 'failed to recruit' to Casement's Brigade whilst at Limburg as "Harry Smyth (Sergt, RIR)" Number 78 here: http://www.irishbrigade.eu/failed-to-get/failed-to get.html If you have any other evidence of his using this 'H' earlier I'd appreciate a hint!
• His age would have been 18 years, 9 months, 13 days - using that 29th April birth date.
• The 1911 Census result is news to me, I'm having issues trying to find him in it though - any pointers appreciated!
• NOK? Is that derived from his Army file where he listed his family, or have you found another source?...he asked hopefully!
• He was definitely at Limburg but, as mentioned above, he was also transferred out, along with about 80 others on the 30th April 1915, in his case to Orb (POW camp) see here: https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/1051924/698/2156/. Many of the names in that 'failed to recruit' list above match those in PA 2151-PA 2157 There is no record of him being transferred from Orb anywhere else that I have found. The Red Cross record that shows him for the first time(?), as G H Smyth shows that his last camp before internment in Holland was indeed Giessen. So, basically Orb POW camp to be added.
• Mention of his transfer to the Reserves 27/05/1919 (underlined) occurs twice in the above text.
• "Address c/o P.O. Tullyhogue, Co. Tyrone" - This is new to me, any sources for that info!
• "Bronchitis and varicose veins." - Again, this is new to me, from where have you sourced this information?
• Seán (1927 - 1991) I can provide some jpg's as evidence if needed
• Máire Teresa (1935 - 2002) ditto

Corisande on this forum has a good website http://www.irishbrigade.eu as you are probably aware, and has chipped in quite a bit recently too, I just wanted to tip my hat to him here and say thanks again. It was his work that allowed me to make a connection between a letter sent by Casement to Wedel on 6/4/15 and my Grandfathers transfer from Limburg to Orb 3 weeks later on 30/4/15.

 

The dates have all now been checked and are spot on.

 

Thanks for your input! A year ago, all I knew was that my Grandfather was Irish and served in WWI. I've managed to build a much fuller picture of his service since then and it's been a fascinating journey.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 15 December , 2018 by Trav
dates now checked

[Jimmy Taylor]

I am attaching new pension cards from Fold 3 which will answer some of your questions.

I wouldn't worry about his age on enlistment as they can be quite inaccurate very often.

I found him in the 1911 Census at the Depot, Belfast.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Dock_Ward/Henry_Place/136963/

I'm not satisfied that Harry Smyth is your man. The NOK, if I remember correctly, came from a POW card. He may have thought that his grandfather was his father.

Mary Creevy was born at Bishop Gate, Mullingar, 5.5.1872, the daughter of John (a labourer) and Mary Creevy née Cosgrave. She had a sister Ellen born at Mud Island, Mullingar, 19.3.1875. Her mother died at Patrick Street, Mullingar, 26.10.1892, aged 40, having been declining for three years.

[Trav]

Thanks for that Jimmy, some new things there for me to look into and figure out.

 

Regarding Harry Smyth, I haven't found any Sgt's by that name in the RIR at Limburg at that time, and it would fit the 'story' quite well I think. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

 

Nevertheless, he was definitely transfered to Orb on 30.4.15 (as Sgt George Smyth) according to ICRC records.

 

The family line is another story completely. Corisande suggested Mary Ellen Creevy was the daughter of James Creevy and Mary Creevy nee Jones, and that he descends from that lineage.

 

Looks like I should add a Fold3 subscription to the Ancestry subs too now!

 

ATB - Stephen

 

Edited 16 December , 2018 by Trav

[Trav]

On 15/12/2018 at 23:36, Jimmy Taylor said:

I'm not satisfied that Harry Smyth is your man.

Jimmy, if I pm you a dropbox link tonight, to a document detailing why I think they are one and the same, would you have time to read it and give me some feedback?

 

The 'evidence' is circumstantial but, I think, compelling.

[museumtom]

[Trav]

Thanks for that.This isn't my Grandfather, which would have been amazing, but Peter would quite likely have been a relative somehow. I will go through the family tree and see if I can place him. That's a nice cutting and much appreciated

[museumtom]

No bother.

This is why I posted it.

 http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Westmeath/Mullingar_Urban/Patricks_St__South_Side/1783668/

[Trav]

And thanks for doing so! But can we be sure that's the same Peter Creevy? I've been told Peter joined up, but I believe he was in the Militia and didn't serve in WWI.

 

[museumtom]

Right so.

[Trav]

I believe this is the same man... however his descendants are rather surprised to find that he served in WWI.

 

*Updated for the records. This (and the newspaper clipping) is Peter Creely who, having joined the Militia as Peter Creevy, signed up for service in the British Army and was told he had to use the same name he had used in the Militia. Creely had been adopted by the Creevy family and reverted to his original Creely name later in life. Peter was my Grandfather's adopted brother.

Edited 23 January , 2020 by Trav

[Trav]

On 19/01/2018 at 21:00, charlie962 said:

His ICRC record is there

 

There is a card that follows on immediately after for a HG Smyth so you need to be careful which records are for your GF; the card I show above fits early capture and subsequent internment.

Just for the record.

 

As it turns out, having now cross referenced the index cards with the PA reference numbers, and found other PA records for my Grandfather as 'G H Smyth' not listed on the index cards but including his service number, I can now state that the 'HG Smyth' card you refer to is also an index card for my Grandfather.

 

Two years later and I'm getting a little better at this. It has also taken over most of my life... no one warned me about that! 😁

Edited 23 January , 2020 by Trav
Clarity

[charlie962]

thanks for update.

charlie

[Trav]

Perhaps the last piece of my puzzle, but one I can't figure out and I'd be immensely grateful for any help!

 

Who was this family listed as Next of Kin within my Grandfather's army file in 1911?

 

My money is on them not being Creevys, the full names aren't given. They may not even be related to my Grandfather, though an Ellen Creevy was probably an Aunt.

 

I've looked through the various census but can't find this family as a unit with any name.

 

Has anyone any suggestions as to who they were, or where I should search next?

[museumtom]

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Westmeath/Gaybrook/Gaybrook_Demesne/884569/

[Trav]

Thanks for the hint, I'll look into that 🙂

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Smith, Smyth, Creevy, Creely, Daly, Fenton-O'Creevy

 

I think that 6 is a new record...