51st Sikhs Posted 30 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 30 November , 2017 Very good suggestion. I’ll write them tomorrow to ask if they could find the full names of the competitiors. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51st Sikhs Posted 30 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 30 November , 2017 On 11/22/2017 at 08:34, o j kirby said: I think I can see the top of a distillery on the horizon. Perhaps that might help to identify the exact location of the photo? I went to school in Forth William. Perhaps the West Highland Museum could be of assistance? Owain. Many thanks for the suggestion. I have written. Keeping my fingers crossed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Abbott Posted 30 November , 2017 Share Posted 30 November , 2017 (edited) The 23rd Aug 1905 edition of the Edinburgh Evening News contains details of the prize winners. Unfortunately my subscription on FMP has expired and until there's a good deal on offer again, I'm not re-subscribing for now! However what I can see, in a summary is mention of James A Center (Edinburgh) and P/M John MacDonald (Inverness) being in the prize lists. I wonder whether that could be the John MacDonald who was Pipe-Major of the 1st Volunteer Battalion, Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders at that time? James Center is presumably the well known bagpipe maker of the same name. Edited 30 November , 2017 by Ron Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIFFO Posted 30 November , 2017 Share Posted 30 November , 2017 just found these while looking for something, may be of interest ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 30 November , 2017 Share Posted 30 November , 2017 On 22/11/2017 at 13:34, o j kirby said: I think I can see the top of a distillery on the horizon. Perhaps that might help to identify the exact location of the photo? I went to school in Forth William. Perhaps the West Highland Museum could be of assistance? Owain. 15 hours ago, 51st Sikhs said: Many thanks for the suggestion. I have written. Keeping my fingers crossed! I think traditionally the Games were held on An Aird, which lies adjacent to the distillery. This is now where the shinty gound is (or was - there's a lot of new sheds going up in the part of Fort William - new M& S etc and I'm not sure exactly what's where at the moment). Here's a 1905 era OS map next to a modern aerial. Note the Water Of Nevis has been re-routed . Follow this link ... http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=16&lat=56.8236&lon=-5.1019&layers=168&right=BingHyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Abbott Posted 3 December , 2017 Share Posted 3 December , 2017 (edited) On 11/30/2017 at 18:37, Ron Abbott said: The 23rd Aug 1905 edition of the Edinburgh Evening News contains details of the prize winners. Unfortunately my subscription on FMP has expired and until there's a good deal on offer again, I'm not re-subscribing for now! However what I can see, in a summary is mention of James A Center (Edinburgh) and P/M John MacDonald (Inverness) being in the prize lists. I wonder whether that could be the John MacDonald who was Pipe-Major of the 1st Volunteer Battalion, Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders at that time? James Center is presumably the well known bagpipe maker of the same name. Had to access for another reason, so checked again, That edition of the Edinburgh evening news mentions three pipers at the Lochaber Games in August 1905 :- Pipe-Major John MacDonald (Inverness) James A Center (Edinburgh) Pipe-Major John MacDougall Gillies (Gillies was Pipe-Major of the 1st Volunteer Battalion, Highland Light Infantry between 1892 and 1908 and had previously been P/M of the 3rd Volunteer Battalion, Gordon Highlanders c1885. Between 1908 and 1914 he was P/M of the 5th Bn. Highland Light Infantry) Meanwhile the 25th August 1905 edition of the Inverness Courier provides prize winners as : - Pipe-Major John MacDonald James A Center Pipe-Major George S MacLennan (1st Bn. Gordon Highlanders) Pipe-Major W Ross (2nd Bn. Scots Guards) George S Allen (2nd Scottish Horse) Pipe-Major John Cameron (Cameron Highlanders) Pipe-Major A Matheson (at that time John Cameron would have been 51 years of age. So it's not him in the photo. He was Pipe-Major of the 3rd Bn. Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders) There is no mention of which regiment/battalion Pipe-Major A Matheson was from. But as 51st Sikhs mentions in the very first post of this thread.....it was Pipe-Major Alexander Matheson of the Royal Scots. A minor (and rather pedantic!) point however, although Matheson was Pipe-Major of the 1st Bn. Royal Scots from 1899 to 1902, between 1902 and 1914, he was Pipe-Major of the 3rd Bn. Royal Scots. Edited 3 December , 2017 by Ron Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51st Sikhs Posted 3 December , 2017 Author Share Posted 3 December , 2017 (edited) Dear Ron Many thanks for looking this up and confirming the prize winners that day. As you surmise, Our subject is clearly not MacDougall Gillies, John MacDonald or James Center. In fact I think the latter is right behind Willie Ross even though we see half of his face with his glengarry straight on his head, hence the famous pipe tune. I want to say our conundrum is military but the fact that’s he wearing spats and the order of the day was clearly levee dress as the other army pipers are dressed makes me what think he’s perhaps civilian after all, but why the front rank?? Edited 3 December , 2017 by 51st Sikhs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy4174 Posted 4 December , 2017 Share Posted 4 December , 2017 (edited) On 11/21/2017 at 13:18, 51st Sikhs said: I just got this lovely photo off Ebay which shows the Pipe Majors and top players of that time playing either into the field or off the field at the Fort William (now The Lochaber Gathering) from 1905. I could definitely identify from right to left: 1. Pipe Major William Ross, 2nd Scots Guards 2. Pipe Major George Stewart McLennan, 1st Gordon Highlanders 3. unknown, perhaps Pipe Major William Kinnear, 1st Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders but the sporran is wrong 4. Pipe Major John MacKay, 1st Battalion, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders 5. and the left handed Pipe Major Alexander Matheson, 1st Royal Scots (edit: according to Ron Abbott, 3rd Royal Scots) Any help on the supposed Cameron PM? Kinnear did not serve in the Boer War and this figure doesn't have his medals, so we could eliminate him rather easily The tartan is correct, and Fort William being in the Cameron's recruiting area, it would have been unthinkable for the Depot Camerons to not have sent someone out there or from the 1st Battalion. It's getting near my bedtime but I've just noticed this post and there is a Great biography for William Robertson Kinnear in Dick Crawfords book Pipers of The Highland Regiments 1854 to 1902 and in Kinnears case it lists his first war exploits as well. He was born in Arbroath 1881 Played the pipes and danced since a youth. Danced for H.M. Queen Victoria at the Braemar games in 1891. He joined the Camerons on 28th February 1900 at the age of 19 Posted to G coy 2nd Battalion on Gibraltar. Went out with a draft on board the Hawarden Castle on the 10th Sep following. He served on Crete and in South Africa in 1904. In 1906 he accompanied the battalion when they were sent down to the Zulu Rebellion. Transferred to the 1st Battalion and appointed Pipe Major on the 7th February 1907; youngest Pipe Major in the British Army at the time. At the conclusion of His Majesty's visit to Aldershot, 8th July 1911, he was presented with the Royal Victorian Medal, the first man to receive a decoration from George V. He served in France in the First War and was wounded in the right arm and suffered a fracture during the battle of the Aisne, 14th Sep 1914 and again at Loos 25th Sep. 1915. Also served as Pipe Major with the 9th Royal Scots at Catterick Camp and the 2nd Gordons at Aberdeen for a period. Awarded the Croix De Guerre by the French Government. While proposing a toast to H.M. The King (must have been a Gaelic one) he had forgotten the words and offered an explination that "as a Scotsman, I cannot propose a gaelic toast in foreign wine" Quickly reviewing his Gaelic while a drinking cup of whisky was obtained, he proposed a second toast and keeping with the Best Traditions, he threw the cup over his shoulder and unfortunately the Head waiter was standing behind him and got hit in the face. He was discharged to pension in 1919. Emigrated to South Africa in 1922 and settled at Mayfair. He then served as Pipe major of the 1st Transval Scottish until transfered to the Witwatersrand Rifles in 1936. When recognised by the Prince of Wales on a visit, was asked "I know you, what Regiment were you with in Britain?" when told the Prince replied " Oh! You're Pipe Major Kinnear" Taught piping and dancing at the Jeppe School Band and he died in Johannesburg General Hospital, 25th April 1974 age 93 Dick list's his medals as The Royal Victorian Medal, 1914 Star and bar Trio and French Croix de Guerre. I recall reading about him coming over and visiting the RHQ in either the 79th News or the Queens Own Highlander but I'm not sure of the date? Hope That Helps? Cheers Jimmy Edited 4 December , 2017 by jimmy4174 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51st Sikhs Posted 4 December , 2017 Author Share Posted 4 December , 2017 Hi Jimmy Many many thanks for your entry on Kinnear. Quite humourous especially the part of him throwing the drinking cup in the waiter’s face! Alas, he’s not the one in the photo and trying to figure who this elusive chap is. Ive just sent you a PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy4174 Posted 4 December , 2017 Share Posted 4 December , 2017 Another Pipe Major I've seen in a similar line up on a march to the games is John MacDonalds brother Andrew who was also Pipe Major of the Scottish Horse, there's a few photo's to be found on the net of him Cheers Jimmy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51st Sikhs Posted 4 December , 2017 Author Share Posted 4 December , 2017 Indeed, but that uniform is definitely not Scottish Horse. BTW, I think the player behind Ross is Center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neill Gilhooley Posted 5 December , 2017 Share Posted 5 December , 2017 Regarding the photograph, the presentation and handwriting look very similar to photographs sold on ebay last year (but I may be reading too much into this), posted here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/124517446@N04/albums/72157672734483134/with/28431724740/ I ascribe these to Capt (as he was in 1905) David Herbert Huie, 9th Royal Scots, an Edinburgh accountant. It seems he was a fairly prolific photographer by the standards of the day, and he was Band President. Were there more on sale on ebay that I missed, if you recall the seller or have a link? Kind regards, Neill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 5 December , 2017 Share Posted 5 December , 2017 55 minutes ago, Neill Gilhooley said: Were there more on sale on ebay that I missed, if you recall the seller or have a link? Kind regards, Neill Here's the original listing on fleaBay ... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/United-kingdom-highland-pipers-fort-william-games-vintage-silver-print-ti-/371427214075?hash=item567ac982fb%3Ag%3AKhAAAOSwgQ9V5YOi&nma=true&si=ePFA4S8HNNiZMv9HDq2ugOblkWw%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 Appears to be a seller in France. In that same seller's stock, I spotted these additional photos, which seem to me to also be of the Lochaber Highland Games - note distillery in the background ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 5 December , 2017 Share Posted 5 December , 2017 (edited) Close-up of the marching pipers ... I see no white spats in the front rank, but *possibly* in the second rank? Definitely some civilians there too. Close-up of the original 1905 photo - five in the front rank here, versus the other photo's four - or is this an illusion because they're wheeling? Some similarities in faces and uniforms, but I'm not certain either way if this new photo is of the 1905 Lochaber Games as well. Sing out if you'd like close-ups of the piping competition shots. Mark Edited 5 December , 2017 by MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 5 December , 2017 Share Posted 5 December , 2017 (edited) Further analysis suggests four of the five are the same men. Here they are individually side by side working along the front rank from left to right as we look at it, the man from 51st Seikhs' photo on the left, the fleaBay seller's other stock on the right ... #1. Left-handed piper - strong match Pipe Major Alexander Matheson, 1st Royal Scots (or according to Ron, 3rd Royal Scots): #2. Same sleeve insignia, tartan, and face similar: reasonable match. Pipe Major John MacKay, 1st Battalion, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders #3. Our man in spats not in the front rank in the fleaBay stock photo, but possibly whose spats are visible immediately behind #2 Identity TBC possibilities include Pipe-Major John MacDonald, 1st VB, Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders James A Center Pipe-Major John MacDougall Gillies, 1st VB, Highland Light Infantry Pipe Major William Kinnear, 1st Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders Pipe-Major John Cameron (Cameron Highlanders) George S Allen (2nd Scottish Horse) #4. Right sleeve insignia and tartan similar, tartan hose very similar. face and hair similar, but glengarry perhaps more upright in the OP's version: fair match Pipe Major George Stewart McLennan, 1st Gordon Highlanders #5. Sleeve insignia and tartan (non-Government sett) similar. Prominent, large plaid brooch. Face and moustache similar: good match. Pipe Major William Ross, 2nd Scots Guards HTH Mark Edited 5 December , 2017 by MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neill Gilhooley Posted 5 December , 2017 Share Posted 5 December , 2017 1 hour ago, MBrockway said: Here's the original listing on fleaBay ... Very kind - my thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon92 Posted 5 December , 2017 Share Posted 5 December , 2017 7 hours ago, MBrockway said: #3. Our man in spats not in the front rank in the fleaBay stock photo, but possibly whose spats are visible immediately behind #2 Identity TBC possibilities include Pipe-Major John MacDonald, 1st VB, Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders James A Center Pipe-Major John MacDougall Gillies, 1st VB, Highland Light Infantry Pipe Major William Kinnear, 1st Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders Pipe-Major John Cameron (Cameron Highlanders) George S Allen (2nd Scottish Horse) Although I had originally agreed with the OP that this man was Kinnear, on a second look I do not think he is a Cameron Highlander. It is difficult to imagine a Cameron piper on parade without the eagle feather in his glengarry. Then, also, there is the sporran issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51st Sikhs Posted 5 December , 2017 Author Share Posted 5 December , 2017 I think so too, but the tartan from what I have seen on photos from this era looks like Cameron of Erracht. However I am beginning to think that he’s probably a 3rd Battalion man or from the Depot where they would not have worn the eagle’s feather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51st Sikhs Posted 5 December , 2017 Author Share Posted 5 December , 2017 (edited) On 12/5/2017 at 05:01, Neill Gilhooley said: Regarding the photograph, the presentation and handwriting look very similar to photographs sold on ebay last year (but I may be reading too much into this), posted here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/124517446@N04/albums/72157672734483134/with/28431724740/ I ascribe these to Capt (as he was in 1905) David Herbert Huie, 9th Royal Scots, an Edinburgh accountant. It seems he was a fairly prolific photographer by the standards of the day, and he was Band President. Were there more on sale on ebay that I missed, if you recall the seller or have a link? Kind regards, Neill Thanks to you Neill, I was able to get the Willie Ross picture of him playing his piobaireachd in front of the judges whom I am looking to ID. I didn’t realize nor bother to look at the sellers other pictures. Well spotted btw of these pictures belonging to Captain Huie. Edited 6 December , 2017 by 51st Sikhs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51st Sikhs Posted 5 December , 2017 Author Share Posted 5 December , 2017 8 hours ago, MBrockway said: Further analysis suggests four of the five are the same men. Here they are individually side by side working along the front rank from left to right as we look at it, the man from 51st Seikhs' photo on the left, the fleaBay seller's other stock on the right ... #1. Left-handed piper - strong match Pipe Major Alexander Matheson, 1st Royal Scots (or according to Ron, 3rd Royal Scots): #2. Same sleeve insignia, tartan, and face similar: reasonable match. Pipe Major John MacKay, 1st Battalion, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders #3. Our man in spats not in the front rank in the fleaBay stock photo, but possibly whose spats are visible immediately behind #2 Identity TBC possibilities include Pipe-Major John MacDonald, 1st VB, Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders James A Center Pipe-Major John MacDougall Gillies, 1st VB, Highland Light Infantry Pipe Major William Kinnear, 1st Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders Pipe-Major John Cameron (Cameron Highlanders) George S Allen (2nd Scottish Horse) #4. Right sleeve insignia and tartan similar, tartan hose very similar. face and hair similar, but glengarry perhaps more upright in the OP's version: fair match Pipe Major George Stewart McLennan, 1st Gordon Highlanders #5. Sleeve insignia and tartan (non-Government sett) similar. Prominent, large plaid brooch. Face and moustache similar: good match. Pipe Major William Ross, 2nd Scots Guards HTH Mark Many thanks Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51st Sikhs Posted 5 December , 2017 Author Share Posted 5 December , 2017 8 hours ago, MBrockway said: Close-up of the marching pipers ... I see no white spats in the front rank, but *possibly* in the second rank? Definitely some civilians there too. Close-up of the original 1905 photo - five in the front rank here, versus the other photo's four - or is this an illusion because they're wheeling? Some similarities in faces and uniforms, but I'm not certain either way if this new photo is of the 1905 Lochaber Games as well. Sing out if you'd like close-ups of the piping competition shots. Mark I wonder if the 2nd photo shows them at the start of the games with the 1st one showing the prize winners which would explain the odd guy out? These four Regimental PM’s by the way were all Gold Medalsts or future ones and thus were the top players of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51st Sikhs Posted 5 December , 2017 Author Share Posted 5 December , 2017 9 hours ago, MBrockway said: Here's the original listing on fleaBay ... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/United-kingdom-highland-pipers-fort-william-games-vintage-silver-print-ti-/371427214075?hash=item567ac982fb%3Ag%3AKhAAAOSwgQ9V5YOi&nma=true&si=ePFA4S8HNNiZMv9HDq2ugOblkWw%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 Appears to be a seller in France. In that same seller's stock, I spotted these additional photos, which seem to me to also be of the Lochaber Highland Games - note distillery in the background ... The third picture from the bottom shows PM Matheson (left handed player, pipes on right shoulder) tuning up before getting on the boards to play. His tartan as befits a Royal Scot is Hunting Stewart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51st Sikhs Posted 6 December , 2017 Author Share Posted 6 December , 2017 (edited) The closeup here thanks to Mark, shows John MacDonald, 4th Camerons right behind GS McLennan. Thanks for this. Edited 6 December , 2017 by 51st Sikhs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 6 December , 2017 Share Posted 6 December , 2017 (edited) As 51st Seikhs has said, the piper warming up off the dais is Matheson ... The piper on the dais playing (left below) is either Ross (centre below) or McLennan (right below) ... - - [cannot be Mackay as no chevrons on LEFT cuff, nor the unidentified piper as no spats, nor Matheson as not left-handed] My vote goes to Ross due to the large prominent plaid brooch, the crossbelt buckle, the wider ribbons joining the drones rather than cords, and what could be a crown above the point of his Pipe Major chevrons on right sleeve. IIRC, 1905 is too early to expect the bagpipe 'trade' badge. The sett of the tartan also appears closer to Royal Stewart to me. For further interest, here are close-ups of the judges. Rather blurred I'm afraid ... Mark Edited 6 December , 2017 by MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Abbott Posted 6 December , 2017 Share Posted 6 December , 2017 (edited) I don't think there is any doubt about Willie Ross, Matheson, MacDonald and 'GS' McLennan. In my opinion, 51st Sikhs is spot on. It's just the man in the middle (if he is in the middle) with the spats that's an enigma. The Scottish Horse had a fairly unique uniform and none of them are wearing it. There was however also an U21 (restricted to natives of Lochaber) piping competition that same day with prizes going to Alex MacDonald (Lochailort) and Hector MacMillan (Fort William). 'Best dressed Highlander' prizes went to J MacDougall Gillies (Glasgow), Pipe-Major A Matheson (Royal Scots) and Pipe-Major D E MacPherson (Royal Scots). Also should anyone be interested, according to the press, the piping judges that day were Capt. Charles MacLean (Pennycross), J McKillop Jr. and CJ Gillespie (Rannachan). The MacLeans of Pennycross are a well documented family. James MacKillop Jr. is also well known in piping circles as the composer of tunes such as 'The Scottish Pipers' Society' and 'MacDougall Gillies'. I haven't come across Gillespie before. DE MacPherson was Pipe-Major 5359 Donald Ewen MacPherson, Pipe-Major of the 1st Bn. Royal Scots from 1901 to 1907. He had also previously served in the 2nd Volunteer Battalion, Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders. He was born in 1871 (North Uist) and he died in Toronto, Canada in 1951. Between 1924 and 1925 there was also a Pipe-Major called Donald MacPherson of the Toronto Scottish and I believe Aad Boode is in the process of checking whether it could be the same man. Pipe-Major Donald Ewen MacPherson was also known for his wrestling ability, winning numerous prizes over the years for his involvement in that sport. The press also lists prize winners of the highland dancing events, and in these days it was of course common to see pipers competing in the highland dancing as well. However none of the winners are referred to as Pipe-Major or Sergeant-Piper or Corporal or Piper so I haven't listed them out. Edited 7 December , 2017 by Ron Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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