Regimental Pipers, Fort William 1905

[51st Sikhs]

I just got this lovely photo off Ebay which shows the Pipe Majors and top players of that time playing either into the field or off the field at the Fort William (now The Lochaber Gathering) from 1905. 

 

I could definitely identify from right to left:

1. Pipe Major William Ross, 2nd Scots Guards

2. Pipe Major George Stewart McLennan, 1st Gordon Highlanders

3. unknown, perhaps Pipe Major William Kinnear, 1st Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders but the sporran is wrong

4. Pipe Major John MacKay, 1st Battalion, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders

5. and the left handed Pipe Major Alexander Matheson, 1st Royal Scots (edit: according to Ron Abbott, 3rd Royal Scots) 

 

Any help on the supposed Cameron PM? Kinnear did not serve in the Boer War and this figure doesn't have his medals, so we could eliminate him rather easily The tartan is correct, and Fort William being in the Cameron's recruiting area,  it would have been unthinkable for the Depot Camerons to not have sent someone out there or from the 1st Battalion. 

Edited 3 December , 2017 by 51st Sikhs

[Steven Broomfield]

No help at all, but what a wonderful picture.

[gordon92]

9 hours ago, 51st Sikhs said:

Any help on the supposed Cameron PM? Kinnear did not serve in the Boer War and this figure doesn't have his medals, so we could eliminate him rather easily The tartan is correct, and Fort William being in the Cameron's recruiting area,  it would have been unthinkable for the Depot Camerons to not have sent someone out there or from the 1st Battalion. 

Yes, I would concur that the man in question is William Kinnear.  See photo below of PM Kinnear taken in London about 1910.  I see what you mean about the sporran, but the glengarry badge looks correct.  The sporran for PM MacKay of the A&SH is not quite right either; it should have 3 black tassels, and the 4 chevrons on the left arm is strange.  Perhaps, Kinnear and MacKay were using borrowed sporrans for some unknown reason.

 

Edited 21 November , 2017 by gordon92

[51st Sikhs]

Many thanks for your reply. It’s good to know we’re thinking along the same lines as I am bereft of Crawford’s book and could not check, instead having to rely on my regimental pipe music collection and histories to confirm Pipe Major tenures. 

Would you have Richard Crawford’s book? 

[o j kirby]

I think I can see the top of a distillery on the horizon. Perhaps that might help to identify the exact location of the photo? I went to school in Forth William. Perhaps the West Highland Museum could be of assistance?

 

Owain.

[gordon92]

22 hours ago, 51st Sikhs said:

Many thanks for your reply. It’s good to know we’re thinking along the same lines as I am bereft of Crawford’s book and could not check, instead having to rely on my regimental pipe music collection and histories to confirm Pipe Major tenures. 

Would you have Richard Crawford’s book? 

I am afraid I do not any longer.  I possessed it at one time but sold it since I was not refferring to it after an initial read.

[MBrockway]

This is from p.72 of Angus Fairrie's Queen's Own Highlanders - Seaforth and Camerons.  It is captioned  1st Battalion QOCH in Dublin 1907 but without names.  Clearly the same man as in Gordon92's 1910 photo ...

 

Mark

 

 

 

Edited 22 November , 2017 by MBrockway

[51st Sikhs]

Hi Mark

 

Oh yes, I have the Fairrie book as well and remember Kinnear’s group picture you reproduced here.  Thank you. 

My question in my first post was whether this was Kinnear or the Depot Pipe Major? At the same giving me doubts on whether this should be a Cameron at all is the fact that the sporran is incorrect as the Camerons sporran was the most unique in the whole Army and one could not confuse them for another Highland Regiment. 

14 hours ago, gordon92 said:

I am afraid I do not any longer.  I possessed it at one time but sold it since I was not refferring to it after an initial read.

Oh too late I was! I’ll just have to keep on digging. Can’t seem to get my hands on his book! 

Thanks. 

Edited 23 November , 2017 by 51st Sikhs

[51st Sikhs]

On 11/21/2017 at 17:12, gordon92 said:

Yes, I would concur that the man in question is William Kinnear.  See photo below of PM Kinnear taken in London about 1910.  I see what you mean about the sporran, but the glengarry badge looks correct.  The sporran for PM MacKay of the A&SH is not quite right either; it should have 3 black tassels, and the 4 chevrons on the left arm is strange.  Perhaps, Kinnear and MacKay were using borrowed sporrans for some unknown reason.

 

What a very nice photo of Kinnear. 

What’s the source of the picture? 

[gordon92]

On 11/23/2017 at 07:08, 51st Sikhs said:

What a very nice photo of Kinnear. 

What’s the source of the picture? 

I found the photo 5 or 6 years ago on the Web, but I am afraid the source has long ago slipped my memory.

[gordon92]

On 11/22/2017 at 17:20, MBrockway said:

This is from p.72 of Angus Fairrie's Queen's Own Highlanders - Seaforth and Camerons.  It is captioned  1st Battalion QOCH in Dublin 1907 but without names.  Clearly the same man as in Gordon92's 1910 photo ...

 

Mark

 

 

 

Interestingly, in this photo PM Kinnear wears the Baldrick belt over the plaid while in the photo I had posted of a later vintage the configuration is reversed.  I believe this detail varied depending on the preference of the battalion's Pipes President.

[gordon92]

On 11/23/2017 at 07:06, 51st Sikhs said:

My question in my first post was whether this was Kinnear or the Depot Pipe Major? At the same giving me doubts on whether this should be a Cameron at all is the fact that the sporran is incorrect as the Camerons sporran was the most unique in the whole Army and one could not confuse them for another Highland Regiment. 

Do you have the original of the photo?  If so, it might be helpful in settling this uncertainty by posting a high resolution scan of his glengarry and of the plaid brooch.

[Ron Abbott]

William Kinnear was not Pipe-Major of the 1st Bn. QOCH in 1905.  It was only in 1907 that he was appointed Sergeant-Piper (P/M).

 

The P/M of the 1st Bn. in 1905 was Pipe-Major Donald McKenzie.

The P/M of the 2nd Bn. in 1905 was Pipe-Major Alexander Beattie. 

The P/M of the Depot was Pipe-Major John Cameron.

The P/M of the 1st Volunteer Bn. was Pipe-Major John MacDonald

 

I wish the photo could be enhanced as it's not just the sporran, but the plaid brooch looks wrong as well.

 

I also note that although you can see the upward facing chevrons on P/M Ross and P/M GS McLennan, you can't see any on the man in the middle.  He may not be a Pipe-Major at all.

 

[gordon92]

10 hours ago, Ron Abbott said:

I wish the photo could be enhanced as it's not just the sporran, but the plaid brooch looks wrong as well.

The sporran is also inconsistent with that of ordinary pipers of the Cameron Highlanders.

[Ron Abbott]

I've not got it in front of me right now, but last night, I noted that there's also a photo of P/M Kinnear in the Caber Feidh Collection of Bagpipe Music (the Queen's Own Highlanders) and in that photo, he is wearing the 'usual' QOCH pipers sporran.

[51st Sikhs]

Hi Ron and 92nd

 

I won the photo on eBay last week and still await it hence why I couldn’t enhance the picture yet. Once I get it, I’ll enlarge it and show it here. 

Thanks for the dates on Kinnear Ron, but knowing that he wasn’t PM yet could only guess he or else another Cameron was the only logical choice to choose from as surely a Cameron Highlander had to represented on it’s own home ground. The other PM’s of the Regiment which you mentioned with the exception of PM John MacDonald and PM Beattie all saw active service and hence should have campaign medals but not this fellow. 

If he’s an Army piper, it’s odd that’s he wearing spats unlike the other pipers. Looking hard at the photo again, I would hazard he’s a Gordon perhaps but the spats bother me as he would have had to conform to GS. 

Edited 28 November , 2017 by 51st Sikhs

[4thGordons]

On 11/24/2017 at 16:35, gordon92 said:

I found the photo 5 or 6 years ago on the Web, but I am afraid the source has long ago slipped my memory.

I believe I have this card - and I may well have posted it on here in an attempt to translate the Russian. I will have a search.

Chris

 

Edit - yes I do indeed own an original copy of this. It is a Russian produced photo post card.

If anyone would like a hi-res scan I can supply it.

Edited 28 November , 2017 by 4thGordons
added confirmation

[gordon92]

17 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

I believe I have this card - and I may well have posted it on here in an attempt to translate the Russian. I will have a search.

Chris

 

Edit - yes I do indeed own an original copy of this. It is a Russian produced photo post card.

If anyone would like a hi-res scan I can supply it.

I had a translation of the Russian text at one time but cannot locate it now.  Do you have a translation, Chris?

[gordon92]

19 hours ago, 51st Sikhs said:

Hi Ron and 92nd

 

I won the photo on eBay last week and still await it hence why I couldn’t enhance the picture yet. Once I get it, I’ll enlarge it and show it here. 

Thanks for the dates on Kinnear Ron, but knowing that he wasn’t PM yet could only guess he or else another Cameron was the only logical choice to choose from as surely a Cameron Highlander had to represented on it’s own home ground. The other PM’s of the Regiment which you mentioned with the exception of PM John MacDonald and PM Beattie all saw active service and hence should have campaign medals but not this fellow. 

If he’s an Army piper, it’s odd that’s he wearing spats unlike the other pipers. Looking hard at the photo again, I would hazard he’s a Gordon perhaps but the spats bother me as he would have had to conform to GS. 

He is not a Gordon.  Gordons would have black buttons on spats.

[MBrockway]

3 hours ago, gordon92 said:

I had a translation of the Russian text at one time but cannot locate it now.  Do you have a translation, Chris?

 

 

Original:

Eвропейская война. Анг лiйскiя войска: Старшiй музыкантъ Шотландскаго полка.

 

Transliteration into Roman alphabet:

Evropeyskaya voyna. Ang liyskiya voyska: Starshiy muzykant Shotlandskago polka.

 

Automatic translation via t'Interweb (so huge apologies!) ...

The European war. Anglican troops: Senior Musician of the Scottish Regiment

I don't think this means he's C of E though

 

 

 

 

Edited 29 November , 2017 by MBrockway

[4thGordons]

I have: "European War. English (sic) troops: Senior musician of the Scottish detachment." written on the back - so you get the general sense. It also has a Russian publisher's address.

[gordon92]

18 hours ago, MBrockway said:

 

 

Original:

Eвропейская война. Анг лiйскiя войска: Старшiй музыкантъ Шотландскаго полка.

 

Transliteration into Roman alphabet:

Evropeyskaya voyna. Ang liyskiya voyska: Starshiy muzykant Shotlandskago polka.

 

Automatic translation via t'Interweb (so huge apologies!) ...

The European war. Anglican troops: Senior Musician of the Scottish Regiment

I don't think this means he's C of E though

 

 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

I have: "European War. English (sic) troops: Senior musician of the Scottish detachment." written on the back - so you get the general sense. It also has a Russian publisher's address.

I wonder how Kinnear would have felt about this label.  IIRC Kinnear lived until the ripe old age of 95.

[51st Sikhs]

23 hours ago, gordon92 said:

He is not a Gordon.  Gordons would have black buttons on spats.

Indeed. Forgot about that part. 

[51st Sikhs]

Got the photo in today. However on attempting to enhance it, it blurs terribly and details are thus obscured. 

If not civilian (and I’m beginning to lean towards this) then I would say Argyll as badge and plaid brooch looks close. But I want to rule this out as the Argyll PM on the left is wearing levee order and this piper would not have won spats. 

I guess it’ll have to remain a mystery. Thanks all for your help. 

[MBrockway]

Returning to Owain's excellent suggestion higher up, you might well find the West Highland Museum has a copy of the 1905 Fort William Highland Games Programme.

 

West Highland Museum
Cameron Square
Fort William
Scotland
PH33 6AJ

T: 01397 702169
E: info@westhighlandmuseum.org.uk

 

Otherwise you could try newspaper archives - an important Games such as Lochaber's is bound to have been covered in the press.

 

Famous military pipers are likely to be mentioned by name.

 

Inverness Press & Journal or the Oban Times  now, but no idea what would be the paper covering The Fort in 1905!

 

In exchange for a good resolution scan of the image, the local archives or museums might be happy to do some digging for you.

Edited 30 November , 2017 by MBrockway