Soldiers Records after 1918?

[nedsir]

2 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

This is the actual ledger for region 12's claim. There would be a ledger for each region and a case file (the files rarely survive).

Most of the writing is simply adminstrative notes,



https://www.fold3.com/image/644964564?terms=55687

Craig thank you very much this is great news and help much appreciated.

 

[ss002d6252]

Just now, nedsir said:

Thanks for that Craig. 

Is there any indication as to when he left the army? I'm a bit confused as it seemed like he was rejected in this part of his claim See attachment

 

 

He was rejected in 1919 when he was demobilised from the army under Class Z (with the reference Z/ASC/53458) but by 1920 he was eligible - that may be due to something that happened during that additional service period he had or he may have asked them to again look at the award and they had changed their assessment.

8s was the lowest pension rate so they felt his disablement was relatively minimal. These pensions could be reviewed and ended if the person was deemed to be no longer disabled.

Craig

[nedsir]

1 minute ago, ss002d6252 said:

He was rejected in 1919 when he was demobilised from the army under Class Z (with the reference Z/ASC/53458) but by 1920 he was eligible - that may be due to something that happened during that additional service period he had or he may have asked them to again look at the award and they had changed their assessment.

8s was the lowest pension rate so they felt his disablement was relatively minimal. These pensions could be reviewed and ended if the person was deemed to be no longer disabled.

Craig Again thank you very much. Regards Ed

 

[ss002d6252]

The part in ref 13/W/ refers to a widows claim being made in Southern Ireland on 21 Sep 1931 (if you in the bottom of right of the ledger I posted above you'll see a note to this effect). It was relatively unusual to see the ledgers still being updated in 1931 as they tended not to use them as often as time went by.

Craig

[nedsir]

6 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

The part in ref 13/W/ refers to a widows claim being made in Southern Ireland on 21 Sep 1931 (if you in the bottom of right of the ledger I posted above you'll see a note to this effect). It was relatively unusual to see the ledgers still being updated in 1931 as they tended not to use them as often as time went by.

Yes he was dead before that date in 1931 so it looks like it was my granny who got the claim. Now it makes more sense. thanks ed

Craig

 

[johntanner]

Original ASC number was M/381152, indicating service in the motor transport

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Coming back to this after a couple of years, I see that on page 1, initial thoughts were :

“assume he was in the Royal Engineer's Water and Railways section and that he was serving near his home City of Belfast. “

Craig then linked to this man on FMP (free this weekend):

1)He was 3125 in the Royal Irish Rifles, then transferred to the Royal Irish Fusiliers in 1897.
His home address was 3 Crozier Row, Belfast.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM/WO96/1136/325/001&parentid=GBM/WO96/1136/1561413
This was an 1896 record, giving a date of birth of approximately 1875.

2)The OP then enquired about Pte Francis McCann 5315 RIF. Date of entry into theatre, 31/10/1914.

3)The current enquiry is regarding Pte. Francis McCann, 6224 RIF & ASC EM2/55687 of 4 McDonnell Street, Belfast, which is again a confirmed address.Date of entry – 08/02/1915.

So, I think we can safely exclude No.2 from this search, he seems to be not relevant. No 1 & No 3 could be the same man, years apart.

Johntanner is correct in saying that the M prefix of his number suggests a mechanical transport driver (usually a lorry or a car – could be a tractor or other mechanical device), but the EM2 prefix is interesting, it is of an After War Army reinlistment under AO 4/19.

The wartime number 55687 was in the sequence 55501 to 73000 that was a Horse Transport number allocated in Spring 1915, and isn't compatible with an MT number issued in 1918 although 381152 is. I wasn't aware that the ASC, then RASC issued a new lower number sequence after the war, but I may be wrong. We'll ask @Gardenerbill for his opinion.

Edited 12 November , 2021 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[TEW]

Hope this hasn't been covered already but #6224 McCann 2/RIF has a casualty list notice on daily list 26/10/1915 suffering from gas poisoning. There is an odd 'report received' date/s which says: Report Received Date Extra1915-04-00,1915-05-00, quite a delay! Only a transcription available on TheGenealogist but it should be in The Times of that date. The only complexity is that his initial is given as P, an easy transcription error?

#5315 F McCann has two notices, daily list 30/1/1915, report received 14/12/1914, no battalion given. Then in daily list 18/10/15 1/RIF, no report date.

TEW

[Gardenerbill]

In response to @Dai Bach y Sowldiwr the later M prefix numbers are 6 digit but from my records the post war EMT prefix numbers appear to 5 digit. 

[nedsir]

Can i just say a big thank you to you all for this information. If I may explain the problem I had from the word go in my research was the number of Francis McCann's that were not only in the Army at that time but the number in such a small area of Belfast that my grandfather lived. Some in the streets within literally yards of each other and none related. In addition in the Royal Irish Fusiliers itself. A nightmare to be frank. But there is no doubt that this latest information is correct. For which I am truly grateful. so thank you all for your great help with this.

Regards to you all.

 

Ed

[nedsir]

It has been some time since I first posted this. But I am somewhat confused as to Francis's Battalion that being as I am to understand the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Irish Fusiliers. Which brings me to the medal card as it seems to only show Francis in France. Yet it seems this battalion actually went to Salonika later in1915. But there seems to be no sign of this on his medal card record. Is this unusual? Also there is the question of his wound in early 1915 and why it took so long to be reported? Any help with this would be of use to me. Regards Ed.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

13 hours ago, nedsir said:

the medal card as it seems to only show Francis in France. Yet it seems this battalion actually went to Salonika later in1915. But there seems to be no sign of this on his medal card record. Is this unusual?

If you look at the MIC again, you will see it states "Theatre of war first served in "  [My bold]

It does what it says on the tin. - First served in. Subsequent theatres (if any) are not listed, so no, not unusual, that was the norm.

[nedsir]

7 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

If you look at the MIC again, you will see it states "Theatre of war first served in "  [My bold]

It does what it says on the tin. - First served in. Subsequent theatres (if any) are not listed, so no, not unusual, that was the norm.

Thanks Dai That clears this. Thought he might have shifted to RASC earlier then I thought. But in additon there is no mention of his being wounded as there is no SWB notification on the medal card. Even though he was shot in 1915. Then later gassed. Seemed a bit odd or then again maybe not so odd. Vis-a-vis record recording of ordinary ranked soldiers.

 

Edited 19 September , 2023 by nedsir

[Matlock1418]

For any others interested in this chap = Some points from later PM discussion with the OP [some of which already covered in this thread of which I was previously unaware]

So far as the pension records go ...

  9 hours ago, nedsir said:

Expand  

This is his successful 1920 disability claim pension index card - 8/- pw is the 20% rate [as confirmed below]

I don't know what Code 6805 means but it seems a later reference compared to what would normallly have been used in earlier times.

The claim was considered DEAD 2.11.26 [on/by]

  9 hours ago, nedsir said:

Expand  

The related pension ledger pages linked to the above PIC

Based on the faint last award annotation it looks like award should have ended in late 1922

Then there is this PIC which refers to 1919 and Malaria [which I suspect also seen]

This seems a bit of a duplicate card, [possibly later??] but it helps by showing the earlier situation.  This is not a card with a standard type of early rejection annotation - those usually had a rejection number stamped on them, most typically at the top.

19/6/19 seems likely to have been his transfer to the Army Z Reserve [effectively it usually became/likely to have been an effective discharge date when the ZR was wound up in 1920]   All men got the opportunity to make a disability claim at this transfer point and he is likely to have done so on Army Form Z.22.  The two matters were not mutually exclusive.  I can't confirm he actually transferred rather than just processed using the Z reference, but certainly they have used a Z/ASC reference.

It looks like he was rejected then.

However I would read it all above as indicating he made a second claim and was successful in late 1920.

However we can't earlier see for what disability they paid out.

Where the annotated Malaria came from I can't explain - but malaria was possible in F&F as well as in other theatres of war [also in the UK as it happened].  Malaria is a disease that can come and go so it could be he was more seriously presenting in 1920 rather than in 1919.

There is also the claim made by his widow in Sep. 1931 [and there's another brief PIC] - No indication/I've no idea if successful.  I've no idea on his cause of death so can't tell if it was service-related and a reason for a widow's pension, or not.

OP advises his death was from a "Bronchial disorder"

So as for gassing and a SWB I also haven't a clue.  I can't see on his MIC ???  Can you offer an image?

His MoP disability award file does not seem to be one of the very few kept as 'PIN 26' files at TNA - they were usually deliberately destroyed once their use was passed.

The 1919 claim we can see on the records above was made in an unknown MoP region - but I would expect it to have been in Belfast/Northern Ireland or dealt with in that region's office as that was where he lived.

The 1920 claim, ref 12/MM/6805, was from a Belfast address and clearly made in MoP region 12 = Northern Ireland

The widow's pension was considered in region 13 = Southern Ireland, but not the disability claim

seen the MIC but no reference to a SWB = Wondered where that SWB came from???

On 19/09/2023 at 17:32, nedsir said:

there is no mention of his being wounded as there is no SWB notification on the medal card. Even though he was shot in 1915. Then later gassed.

As for a SWB - he was seemingly considered fit enough for Z Reserve service so a SWB would not be issued as he was not medically discharged as Unfit for Service under KR Para 392 xvi

SWB usually automatically given on medical discharge after its authorisation in September 1916 up to 31 December 1919 but I believe others had to apply for it if discharged before it was authorised.

Whilst on the general topic of wounds - A Wound Stripe(s) were given for a wound(s) [including gassing] but only if mentioned in a Casualty List(s)

I hope this filled in a few points for you Ned/Ed.

M

Edited 11 October , 2023 by Matlock1418