Women involved in combat

[PFF]

There was a National Geographic Article on Australia. One of the Portaits was that of a

Russian Woman who in World War I disguised herself as a man-survived the war but lost a arm.(Copytigthed-for reference only)

[ypres1418]

Daily mail, 21 August 1914.

ENGLISH GIRL AS AIRMAN.

ARREST IF FRANCE WHEN IN UNIFORM.

FROM OUR OWN CORRESPONDANT. G. WARD PRICE.

PARIS, Thursday.

"The most romantic little story yet grown out of the war concerns an English girl of good family who, according to a telegram from Dijon, was arrested there yesterday disguised in the uniform of a French flying officer and with her hair cut short.

The police at Dijon were informed by telegram from Pau that it was suspected that among the party of military airmen who had left Pau was one who was really a woman. Search was made and she was discovered. her name is not given but she is said to be twenty-six years old.

The Dijon authorities first thought that there must be some romantic explanation of her disguise, but she assured them that the truth was that she wanted to go to the front, and having been unable to get herself accepted for service in the Army she cut her hair, bought a uniform, and joined the party of airmen as one of their number.

Her family has been telegraphed to and she will be sent home."

No other info, I'm afraid.

Mandy

[salientguide]

On the British side there was always ...Bob!! eh Baldrick!!

[Canadawwi]

Article dated September 12, 1917 - re Women's Legion of Death, Petrograd Division.

[Guest British Sapper]

Certainly the 'drop em and cough' would weed out any charlatans.

I suppose that the only women in combat in WW1 would be spies.

Definitely in Russia in WW2, there were Regiments of women who went into front line action. The same is true of women in Israeli regiments, they go into front line battle.

Call me a sexist if you wish, but women should not be in combat roles. I served in Ulster, 1974.

[Dolphin]

There was a thread some time ago about female pilots who served in combat. Like their Soviet counterparts in the later conflict, some Russian women flew in combat.

See

Gareth

[Guest wrinklyone]

I suppose that the only women in combat in WW1 would be spies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Apparently not so. There's been a recent thread in 'Other Theatres' about Turkish women snipers at Gallipoli.

[Jonathan Saunders]

We had a thread about a year ago about a woman that acquired an army uniform and attached herself to the RE - I think in the Somme/Ancre area. Cant remember her name but I think she was a journalist and she wrote a book of her experiences at the Front.

[Jonathan Saunders]

Apparently not so. There's been a recent thread in 'Other Theatres' about Turkish women snipers at Gallipoli.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To the best of my knowledge and just to be clear - this story of the female Turkish sniper(s) is almost definitely untrue.

[2ndCMR]

To the best of my knowledge and just to be clear - this story of the female Turkish sniper(s) is almost definitely untrue.

Beyond the plain a number of stunted oaks, gradually becoming more dense farther inland, formed excellent cover for the enemy's snipers, a mode of warfare at which the Turk was very adept. Officers and men were continually shot down, not only by rifle fire from advanced posts of the enemy, but by men, and even women, behind our own firing line, especially in the previous attacks. The particular kind of tree in this part, a stunted oak, lends itself to concealment, being short with dense foliage. Here the sniper would lurk, with face painted green, and so well hidden as to defy detection. Others would crouch in the dense brushwood, where anyone passing could be shot with ease. When discovered, these snipers had in their possession enough food and water for a considerable period, as well as an ample supply of ammunition."....

The 1st Battalion Essex advanced well and lost few men. The other battalions, who had delayed, suffered more severely. All we could do was to keep down the fire of the snipers by shooting into the trees. Rumour has it that some of these snipers were tied to trees, with water and food within reach. Women snipers have been caught within our lines with their faces, arms, legs, and rides painted green.

http://user.online.be/~snelders/sand.htm

[Borys]

vb136 said:

One woman, unfortunately I have forgotten her name, served in the Austro-Hungarian army during WW 1.

If I remember correctly, she was of Polish descent, and served on the eastern front, where she was taken prisoner by the Russians. She was exchanged, via the Red Cross sometime in 1916 or 1917.

I have seen a photo of her, taken during the exchange-process.

Unfortunately, I have no information concerning her post-WW 1 life.

Ahoj!

I think you have Olena Stepanivna in mind. She was Ukranian. Her exploits are impressive, to say the least:

[Dead link removed]

If linking to other forums is not allowed, please let me know.

Borys

[Cam_s]

Call me a sexist if you wish, but women should not be in combat roles. I served in Ulster, 1974.

First I have to say I am a male soldier in a Combat Arms trade (amoured Recce).

Times have changed since 1974 and physical standards and training standards for women are the same as men for being deployed into combat. They must be able to do it or they don't go. Whats the difference in being a infantry soldier in a combat role or the Company Medic (not a combat arms trade) who is required to do the same job, carry more stuff and go the same places as the infanteer.

Currently in the Canadian Army there are lots women serving in Combat roles in Afghanistan and they have been in it the same as any of the men. One Female Captian was killed when she was leading a FOO party in support of one of the Companies in an attack.

There have been no problems and they have served to the same standard as the rest of us guys. I believe the Americans have even decorated a couple of Women MP's for combat in Iraq.

One common argument is that the male soldiers will form a bond to the women and they will not do thier jobs as well. I have never seen this favoritism and from most of the women I know in the Combat Arms or other trades they will sort out any men who treat them like this. There are those who do try to use thier female abilities on men, but they are removed quickly. The only thing stopping a women from doing the same job to the same standard as us men is the mental strength of the women.

Cam

[James Blonde]

A woman from Roumania, Ecaterina Teodoriou, served as a 2/Lt in the Roumanian army during WW 1. She was killed in action on 21 August 1917, during the batlle of Marasesti.

Hallo vb136

with regards Ecaterina Teodoriou,

here is a picture from an original Romanian WW1 Era Poster I found in the USA, and brought back to Transylvania. She is shown wearing the Romanian award the Military Virtue Cross.

It reads on the poster:

EORINA SUB-LOCOTENENT ECATERINA TEODOROIU / HEROINE SUB-LIEUTENANT ECATERINA TEODOROIU

DE LA JIU. / FROM THE TOWN JIU*

* = In Oltania, South West region of Romania.

Kevin.

[James Blonde]

Certainly the 'drop em and cough' would weed out any charlatans.

I suppose that the only women in combat in WW1 would be spies.

Definitely in Russia in WW2, there were Regiments of women who went into front line action. The same is true of women in Israeli regiments, they go into front line battle.

Call me a sexist if you wish, but women should not be in combat roles. I served in Ulster, 1974.

Hallo B. S.

In WW1 and even today Spies rarely engage in combat their job is mainly there to spy, and not get noticed.

Not sure about the Israeli Army using women in front-line action, as far as I can recall they tried using women in frontline combat but found that if a woman got wounded members of the section hung back with her, therefore taking away the combat effectiveness of the group. Also any that were taken prisoner, did not endure a happy fate.

The Israelis then started to use them as instructors, the reason was if a girl could show a group of men she could operate the gun, tank, plane, ship etc, their male pride would make them try harder in training.

All the same, if push came to shove the Israelis no doubt could deploy their women in a combat role as all young people boys and girls must do compulsary military training, the only option is to serve in the medical services both military and civilian.

Kevin

[James Blonde]

The story, which has been published several places, is that the 3rd Alpine Chasseurs were surrounded in the mountains, and needed resupply and casualty evacuation. Foch reportedly called Marie and asked her to take some troops, train them in ski and climbing operations, and then go help out the 3rd Alpinis. Supposedly she did so, and was the only woman ever accepted as part of the 3rd Alpinis. Doc2

So the Unit that was surrounded in the mountains and in need of re-supply and casualty evac, (if surrounded how was that to be done ) had to wait for a woman to train people to come to their rescue, they would be long dead / captured / by the time it took to train them, no matter if instructed by man or woman.

Another myth from the mists of WW1. If she had been there and done that she would have received some very high decorations and awards as well as lots of publicty.

Kevin.

[Doc2]

So the Unit that was surrounded in the mountains and in need of re-supply and casualty evac, (if surrounded how was that to be done ) had to wait for a woman to train people to come to their rescue, they would be long dead / captured / by the time it took to train them, no matter if instructed by man or woman.

Another myth from the mists of WW1. If she had been there and done that she would have received some very high decorations and awards as well as lots of publicty.

Kevin.

Actually, she did receive some awards and decorations-- publicity not so much. Still researching this incident, but it does seem to have a basis in fact. The 3rd AC were probably slightly isolated though not actually surrounded, and I suspect her contributions were to assist in establishing a trans-mountain logistics capability rather than an emergency rescue. There actually is a photo of her in 3rd Alpine Chasseur uniform after this event, which was posted on this forum a year or two ago. Still looking for an official history of the 3rd Alpini to review in detail. She was on the Italian front for quite some time, though details of her activities are very scarce, and her official cover as "war correspondent" does not appear to have resulted in any published articles I can find-- Some references say she flew recon missions (I can't document it, and really doubt this), some say she was a spy.... Having looked into her biography in great detail, I personally believe she was serving in some capacity of spy, though I cannot yet document it. Doc2

[James Blonde]

Hallo Chaps & Chappies

this interesting picture surfaced up for auction at the moment on Ebay:

 

Vintage photograph. Stamped on back: Official photograph issued by the Press Bureau and Passed for Transmission abroad (see scan).

Sergeant Major Flora Sandes recovers from her wounds and takes her first walk in the streets of Salonika. Our Jeanne d'Arc as the Serbians call her is the brave Irishwoman who has been fighting in the Serbian trenches all though the offensive which resulted inn the fall of Monastir.

She was badly wounded by a Bulgarian hand grenade while leading her men and was afterward decorated with the Cross of Karageorge for bravery in the field. A Serbian officer congratulates her.

Size (in.) : 6x8. Date: 1910's. Place/Origin : Salonica Front.

Condition : Silver print, Good to very good condition, light creases, 3 pinholes

Photographer/Credit : NEWS SERVICE (Misc). Category : 20th Century

Anybody here ever come across mention of this lady before??

Connaught Stranger.

[James Blonde]

REAR OF THE PICTURE UP FOR AUCTION:

Interesting web pages found at:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Wsandes.htm

Flora Sandes, the daughter of Samuel Sandes, a Scottish clergyman, was born in 1876. On the outbreak of the First World War, Sandes joined an ambulance unit in Serbia on the Eastern Front.

In November, 1915, the Serbian Army was unable to stop Austro-German and Bulgarian forces advancing deep into Serbia. Sandes joined the army when it retreated into Kosovo and by the end of November, the forces had reached the Albanian mountains.

Although nearly forty years old, in December 1916, was promoted to the rank of sergeant-major. In an effort to raise funds for the Serbian forces, Sandes wrote and published, An English Woman-Sergeant in the Serbian Army (1916).

After the war, Sandes remained in the Serbian Army and had reached the rank of major by the time she retired. In 1927 Sandes married the former White Army general, Yurie Yudenich. After her husband's death in September, 1941, Sandes returned to England. Flora Sandes died at her Suffolk home in 1956.

(NOT SURE NOW WHERE THE ORIGINAL POST GOT ITS IRISH CONNECTION FROM??)

http://www.poppleton.net/historysoc/page9.html

http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/sandes.htm

Flora Sandes (1876-1956) was a British nurse who subsequently enlisted as a Serbian Army soldier during the First World War.

The daughter of an Irish clergyman Sandes was prompt in volunteering for service with a Serbian ambulance unit upon the Austro-Hungarian declaration of war with Serbia on 28 July 1914.

When the Serbian Army was overrun by invading Austro-German-Bulgarian forces in November 1915 Sandes travelled with the Army and government-in-exile during the 'Great Retreat' to Corfu via the mountains of Albania. Sandes herself enlisted with the Serbian Army - the Iron Regiment - during the retreat.

In November the following year Sandes achieved a remarkable promotion, to Sergeant-Major. The same year, 1916, she published An English Woman-Sergeant in the Serbian Army as a means of raising necessary funds for the Serbian cause.

Before year 1916 was out she had suffered a wound caused by an enemy grenade during hand-to-hand fighting. Her wound meant that she returned to her original wartime occupation, running a hospital.

In spite of the end of war in late 1918 Sandes chose to remain with the Serbian Army, eventually retiring with the rank of Captain and with Serbia's highest decoration, the King George Star.

Having lived a decidedly unusual and adventurous life for a woman of the period Sandes eventually married in 1927. Upon the death of her husband Yurie Yudenitch in 1941 Sandes remained in Belgrade until the end of the Second World War, belatedly returning home to England where she died in Suffolk in 1956.

Connaught Stranger

[Doc2]

Nope, haven't run across her before. Lots of fascinating stories out there-- all we have to do is look. Doc2

[James Blonde]

More Pics located on the websites mentioned before:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A5849120

Flora Sandes - Heroine of the Great War.

'Well, can you run fast?'

'What, away from the Bulgars?!' I exclaimed in surprise.

'No, towards them.'

'Yes, of course I can.'

Flora Sandes, an English nurse who enlisted with the Serbian Army during the First World War, risked her life to fight for the cause of a people she barely knew. However, she picked up a gun when called to and became not just a soldier, but a highly decorated leader of men.

The Vicar's Daughter

The daughter of Samuel Sandes, an Irish clergyman, Flora was born in 1876, the youngest of nine children. She grew up in the small town of Poppleton (near York), in Yorkshire. Always an adventurous woman, she once cycled through Central America to visit her brother, who was helping build the Panama Canal. While there, she rescued her baby nephew, Dick, whose mother had recently died, by cycling back through the jungle carrying the baby in her bicycle basket.

On her return to England, Flora began gaining nursing expertise with the St John Ambulance and a group known as the First Aid Nursing Yeomanry (FANY). The FANY worked with the Red Cross, principally as ambulance drivers, but were also trained in battlefield retrieval: the nurses would rescue casualties and carry them to safety on horseback.

At the outbreak of the First World War, Flora Sandes promptly volunteered for service with a Red Cross ambulance unit on the Eastern Front. Already in her late thirties and a comparative 'old-timer', she left London by steamer on the 12 August, 1914, along with another 36 nurses bound for Serbia. When the Serbian Army was overrun by invading Austro-German-Bulgarian forces in November 1915, Flora travelled with the army and government-in-exile during the 'Great Retreat' to Corfu via the mountains of Albania.

During the retreat, Flora became lost while on her white horse Diana, and found herself fighting alongside the men of the Fourth Company of the Serbian 2nd Infantry Regiment (the 'Iron Regiment') against the Bulgarians. The Serbian Army were no strangers to women fighting in their ranks, so the English nurse was quickly encouraged to pick up a weapon. She borrowed a rifle and quickly learned how to use the weapon:

I had only a revolver and no rifle of my own at that time, but one of my comrades was quite satisfied to lend me his and curl himself up and smoke. The officer in charge showed me how to fire off one of the guns when he gave the word, and let me take the place of the man who had been doing it.

Flora soon officially enlisted in the regiment and went with them as it retreated into Kosovo. By the end of November, the Serbian forces had reached the Albanian mountains.

A Natural Soldier.

Colonel Militch, the company commander, explained that he allowed Flora to join his troops because he felt she would be 'as effective a soldier as the Serbian peasant women' already fighting in the ranks. Flora was a vital asset to the company, as she was able to shoot, ride a horse, drive and speak four languages. Although nearing forty years of age, she quickly became a corporal:

Lt Jovitch took me into his company, and I was enrolled on its books, and he seemed to think I might be made a corporal pretty soon if I behaved myself.

Flora was in charge of a platoon when she was severely injured by an enemy grenade during hand-to-hand fighting in August 1916. She was hospitalised, awarded Serbia's highest military decoration, the Karageorge 1, and in November was promoted to the rank of sergeant-major. She quickly recovered and, despite her injuries, returned to the front. Her notoriety among the enlisted troops and other army units grew. Ishobel Ross of the Scottish Women's Hospital Unit recalls in her diary of 29 September, 1916:

Colonel Vassovitch came into the camp with an English woman dressed in the uniform of the Serbian Army. Her name is Flora Sandes. She is quite tall with brown eyes and a strong, yet pretty face. She is a sergeant in the 4th Company and talked to us for a long time about her experiences, and the fierce fighting she and the men of her company had to face. We felt so proud of her and her bravery.

In 1916, Flora also published her biopic An English Woman-Sergeant in the Serbian Army as a means of raising necessary funds for the Serbian cause. The book quickly propelled her to stardom, and, to the Serbs, she was akin to many other contemporary heroes.

After the Great War.

Flora Sandes remained with the Serbian Army. Her bravery during the Great War was recognised in June 1919 when a special Serbian Act of Parliament made her the first woman to be commissioned to the rank of Lieutenant in the Serbian Army. In 1927, she married former Russian White Army general Yurie Yudenich. Flora found civilian life difficult, and spent most of her time shunning female attire and dressing mainly in her military uniform, proudly wearing her Karageorge.

When the Nazi Party came to power in Germany, Flora was living in Belgrade with her husband. At the outbreak of the Second World War she was briefly called up, despite her age and the lingering effects of a severe war wound, as a member of the Serbian Army reserves in 1939. Although now 63, she was captured by Germans and taken to a military prison hospital, where she was able to use her gender to her advantage. The German guards were accustomed to seeing Flora in uniform, so did not recognise her when she put on women's clothes and simply walked out of the jail. It took several weeks for the Germans to track her down and re-arrest her.

After the death of her husband in 1941 and the end of the Second World War in 1945, Flora returned to England, retiring from the Serbian Army with the rank of major. The quiet life was something Flora found difficult:

Turning from a woman to a private soldier proved nothing compared with turning back from soldier to ordinary woman. She continued to make public appearances dressed in her uniform, a smart walking cane at her side, passing comment on the Great War to anyone who asked:

"It is a funny thing about rifle fire, that a person's instinct always seems to be to hunch up his shoulders or turn up his coat collar when he is walking about, as if it were rain, though the bullet you hear whistle past your ears is not the one that is going to hit you."

Flora Sandes passed away in 1956 at her home near Thornton Heath, Suffolk. To this day, she is almost forgotten by her home country, but in Serbia she continues to be an inspiration for the men and women of the armed forces.

Connaught Stranger

[Myrtle]

According to the 1881 and 1901 censuses Samuel Sandes, Flora's father was Irish born. In 1881 the family lived at Monewden, Suffolk and in 1901 they lived in Croydon. Flora at that time was listed with her occupation as correspondent.

Myrtle

[James Blonde]

According to the 1881 and 1901 censuses Samuel Sandes, Flora's father was Irish born. In 1881 the family lived at Monewden, Suffolk and in 1901 they lived in Croydon. Flora at that time was listed with her occupation as correspondent. Myrtle

Hallo Myrtle, many thanks for additional info, Connaught Stranger