Guest Frillidan Posted 20 December , 2004 Share Posted 20 December , 2004 Hi, all - Unlike the American Civil War and countless other conflicts, the Great War made ample (and unclothed) note of certain physical standards to be met before one was allowed into the army. Therefore, women could not fraudulently enlist as men (alas for Edmund Blackadder) - however, has anyone come across any instances of women somehow getting into the trenches and being involved in combat? I know in the early days of the war there were members of the F.A.N.Y. etc. that could go right down into the trenches to retrieve the wounded, and they were often involved in a bombardment of sorts. But to me it seems conceivable for a "tomboy" to sneak into the army and experience some combat, if only for a certain amount of time before discovery. There was no lack of spare equipment and uniforms lying around, after all. From what I understand, the idea in the American Civil War was that, during that period in time, it was so inconceivable for a woman to disguise herself as a man that the other soldiers wouldn't notice. I thought the same might be true of the Great War era, what with the gender stratification and all. What do you think? Any cases proven, or is it all a load of hogwash? Later! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 20 December , 2004 Share Posted 20 December , 2004 The one woman that springs to mind is Flora Sandes, who fought with the Serbian Army in the Balkans. Her story is recounted in 'The Lovely Sergeant' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 21 December , 2004 Share Posted 21 December , 2004 See this article http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWbochkareva.htm for details of Maria Bochkareva who served with men fighting in the Russian army before founding the Women’s Battalion in 1917 Regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landsturm Posted 21 December , 2004 Share Posted 21 December , 2004 I was gonna mention the Russian Women`s Battalion, but seems that michaeldr beat me first. Well, this should be interesting article: Lady of Loos 1915 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 21 December , 2004 Share Posted 21 December , 2004 I was gonna mention the Russian Women`s Battalion, but seems that michaeldr beat me first. Landsturm, In our family we have a lot of respect for Russian womanhood [as I always tell my mother-in-law, who was born to Russian parents, in Tiblisi, in 1918!] Regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compo Posted 21 December , 2004 Share Posted 21 December , 2004 Just a thought. Perhaps some of our medical PALS can shed light. The physical exam to join the armed forces included a chest measurement minimum and maximum. Is it possible that this was to confirm the sex of the individual? This would have excluded virtually all females I imagine. There did not seem to be any recorded "Short Arm" inspection as it is called here in the USA so perhaps this was a "nice" alternative. On the other hand, perhaps there is a medically valid other reason to measure chest expansion. I have long wondered what difference a chest size, presumably lung capacity, would make on the fighting ability of an indivedual. No one seems interested in this measurement in modern medicine it seems to me so why did they do it in WWI? Rgds Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 21 December , 2004 Share Posted 21 December , 2004 Therefore, women could not fraudulently enlist as men (alas for Edmund Blackadder) Ahhh Young Private Tom! There were pictures of the Russian Ladies Posted on this Site some Months ago,& a Terrifying sight they were too!,Search <"Why Are Men Such Brutes?,"> posted by the infamous WestGortonWimminsGroup~ A Fine Body Of Men!For some interesting Battalion Of Death Pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Frillidan Posted 21 December , 2004 Share Posted 21 December , 2004 The physical exam to join the armed forces included a chest measurement minimum and maximum. Is it possible that this was to confirm the sex of the individual? This would have excluded virtually all females I imagine. There did not seem to be any recorded "Short Arm" inspection as it is called here in the USA so perhaps this was a "nice" alternative. On the other hand, perhaps there is a medically valid other reason to measure chest expansion. I have long wondered what difference a chest size, presumably lung capacity, would make on the fighting ability of an indivedual. No one seems interested in this measurement in modern medicine it seems to me so why did they do it in WWI? I'm not exactly sure, but could chest size have something to do with perceived health? After the Boer War there was the big mess about the poorer men being thin and unfed and unhealthy, cooped up in factories and breathing fetid air and such, so maybe if one was "barrel-chested" it was supposed to mean more athletic, more time spent in healthy fresh air, he inhales more deeply and therefore his lungs get filled more and expand. (?!?! No idea really!) As for the "short arm" inspection, I'm pretty sure the medical exams--at least for the ranks--were conducted with the recruit in a state of undress, which should have been proof enough of the sex of the individual. But my evidence comes from 1916, so might this level of scrutiny have been a moderately late development? Kate, Michael, & Landstrum - thanks for the interesting examples! I've never heard of the Russian Women's Battalion, or any of the individuals you've mentioned - shows how much I know! Later! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 21 December , 2004 Share Posted 21 December , 2004 I was gonna mention the Russian Women`s Battalion, but seems that michaeldr beat me first. Well, this should be interesting article: Lady of Loos 1915 Fantastic story! Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 I remember reading an article about an English woman living in Paris who managed to get right up to the front posing as a man in a replacement draft before being discovered and sent packing. The authorities were at a loss as to what to charge her with. I think she did it twice, and on one occasion received help from her lover who was a soldier. I don't think she remainder undiscovered for long once she got up to the front. I am searching back through back copies of Stand To! and will post again if I can find the reference. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDick Posted 22 December , 2004 Share Posted 22 December , 2004 There are also photographs in The War Illustrated of Italian women - well dressed, middle class etc - forming private, armed fighting units in early 1915, equipped with rifles and undergoing (some form of) military training. I don't think they made an appearance at the Front. And in Paris in 1870 a similar unit of 'Amazons' was mooted among women in the higher echelons of society to be raised to help defend the ramparts of the City against the besieging Prussians. Uniforms were designed and women presented themselves for enlistment, but I don't think the idea got off the ground. Hannah Snell, who joined the Royal Marines in the mid-18thC. and served with them for a number of years, even - so rumour has it - maintained the illusion after she was wounded. She capitalised on her fame when subsequently she opened a pub in Portsmouth. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
healdav Posted 23 December , 2004 Share Posted 23 December , 2004 "On the other hand, perhaps there is a medically valid other reason to measure chest expansion. I have long wondered what difference a chest size, presumably lung capacity, would make on the fighting ability of an indivedual. No one seems interested in this measurement in modern medicine it seems to me so why did they do it in WWI?" When I joined the Fire Service in 1963, one of the things they measured was chest expansion. I nearly didn't pass as I couldn't expand enough despite having just come back from Outward Bound School and regularly walking the width of Dartmoor over a weekend. I was fit, but just not the physique laid down. I was baffled as to what the problem was likely to be, but there we go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc2 Posted 21 January , 2005 Share Posted 21 January , 2005 In response to Frilliday--- I am aware of one pretty well documented case in the West. Marie Marvingt, a French Nurse, pilot, sportswoman, and all-around adventurer, managed to get a friendly Lieutenant to slip her into his unit. She actually served on the front line for some time (several weeks to a month), before being discovered and kicked out. She never really enlisted, apparently, but her participation was pretty well documented-- I have a photo of her in full uniform. She served under the name of Chasseur Second Class Beaulieau of the 42nd Chasseurs de Pied. It is not directly relevant to this inquiry, but she was also one of the first (if not the first) woman to actually pilot a plane in combat, flying bombing missions over German-Held Metz in 1915. There is another string on this forum relevant to female pilots in WWI, which you may want to look at. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc2 Posted 13 February , 2005 Share Posted 13 February , 2005 Just for interest, here is a photo of Marie Marvingt, serving as Chasseur Deuxieme Classe Beaulieu in the French 42nd B.C.P. (Battalion De Chasseurs de Pied) in 1915. Doc2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vb136 Posted 14 February , 2005 Share Posted 14 February , 2005 One woman, unfortunately I have forgotten her name, served in the Austro-Hungarian army during WW 1. If I remember correctly, she was of Polish descent, and served on the eastern front, where she was taken prisoner by the Russians. She was exchanged, via the Red Cross sometime in 1916 or 1917. I have seen a photo of her, taken during the exchange-process. Unfortunately, I have no information concerning her post-WW 1 life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 14 February , 2005 Share Posted 14 February , 2005 One woman, unfortunately I have forgotten her name, served in the Austro-Hungarian army during WW 1. If I remember correctly, she was of Polish descent, and served on the eastern front, where she was taken prisoner by the Russians. She was exchanged, via the Red Cross sometime in 1916 or 1917. I have seen a photo of her, taken during the exchange-process. Unfortunately, I have no information concerning her post-WW 1 life. I wonder why these women who tried to serve did it? I think I'd have been relieved that I didn't have to go and confined myself to traditional roles such as looking after the wounded men. I'm sure as a serving soldier I'd have been a liability - not physically strong enough or stalwart enough. Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc2 Posted 26 February , 2005 Share Posted 26 February , 2005 Later, after her service with the 42nd BCP, Marie Marvingt (famous French Alpiniste, Champion Skier, and Aviator) was apparently tagged by Marshall Foch to provide training in skiing and mountainclimbing to the 3rd Alpine Chasseurs (Itallian). I am still trying to get details on this episode, but a photo of her does exist in Alpini Uniform. This episode is documented in Cordier, "Leurs Demeures en Lorraine", and Cordier "La Femme D'un Siecle". If anyone can provide any more information on this episode, or on Marvingt in general, I would greatly appreciate it, as I am trying to develop a modern biography of her. Photo attached. Doc2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Best Posted 1 March , 2005 Share Posted 1 March , 2005 A fine ankle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Simon Bull Posted 18 March , 2005 Share Posted 18 March , 2005 perhaps there is a medically valid other reason to measure chest expansion. I have long wondered what difference a chest size, presumably lung capacity, would make on the fighting ability of an indivedual. No one seems interested in this measurement in modern medicine it seems to me so why did they do it in WWI? Rgds Bill I am in no way medically qualified. However, I have reflected upon this question, and I wonder whether the answer may have something to do with the prevalence of tuberculosis at the time of the Great War. Could it be that a low level of chest expansion was an indication of tubercular infection in the lung? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Indy Posted 6 April , 2005 Share Posted 6 April , 2005 Later, after her service with the 42nd BCP, Marie Marvingt (famous French Alpiniste, Champion Skier, and Aviator) was apparently tagged by Marshall Foch to provide training in skiing and mountainclimbing to the 3rd Alpine Chasseurs (Itallian). I am still trying to get details on this episode, but a photo of her does exist in Alpini Uniform. This episode is documented in Cordier, "Leurs Demeures en Lorraine", and Cordier "La Femme D'un Siecle". If anyone can provide any more information on this episode, or on Marvingt in general, I would greatly appreciate it, as I am trying to develop a modern biography of her. Photo attached. Doc2 <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Does it mean that she actually spent some time with Cacciatori delle Alpi to train in skiing and mountainclimbing? I've checking around in some italian sites,but it seems that nobody knows much about her.It's quite an interesting story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vb136 Posted 6 April , 2005 Share Posted 6 April , 2005 A woman from Roumania, Ecaterina Teodoriou, served as a 2/Lt in the Roumanian army during WW 1. She was killed in action on 21 August 1917, during the batlle of Marasesti. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zijde26 Posted 6 April , 2005 Share Posted 6 April , 2005 The following website http://www.eurobuch.com/index_800.php?session_id=7587251 gives a book about her. Gilbert Deraedt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunflower Posted 7 April , 2005 Share Posted 7 April , 2005 More info on women in combat at http://www.gendergap.com/military/Warriors-2.htm sunflower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc2 Posted 8 April , 2005 Share Posted 8 April , 2005 Does it mean that she actually spent some time with Cacciatori delle Alpi to train in skiing and mountainclimbing? I've checking around in some italian sites,but it seems that nobody knows much about her.It's quite an interesting story. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Unfortunately, I have not yet been able to find too many details. The story, which has been published several places, is that the 3rd Alpine Chasseurs were surrounded in the mountains, and needed resupply and casualty evacuation. Foch reportedly called Marie and asked her to take some troops, train them in ski and climbing operations, and then go help out the 3rd Alpinis. Supposedly she did so, and was the only woman ever accepted as part of the 3rd Alpinis. I am looking for some documentation, but given the rest of her life and her capabilities, I tend to believe the story-- it is very much in character and within her capabilities. And she was a close personal friend of Foch. She did spend months on the Italian front after this episode-- but I can't find out exactly what she was doing. Supposedly she was a war correspondent, but I can't find anything she wrote. Some sources say she was a spy for the Allies, and others say she flew at least reconnaissance missions for the French. I am still looking for documentation. Doc2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc2 Posted 8 April , 2005 Share Posted 8 April , 2005 More info on women in combat at http://www.gendergap.com/military/Warriors-2.htm sunflower <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sunflower, thanks for the URL. However, after nearly 10 years of looking in every aviation and military museum in France and Belgium, I cannot find any evidence that Helene Dutrieu flew for the French in WWI. That seems to be a post-ww2 myth. I don't know where that website got the info, as they do not provide any references, but I think this is one we can lay to rest. Doc2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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