Sgt. Edward Connolly RDF Prisoner of War

[depaor01]

7 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

On the same page of the RDF 1914 Star Medal Roll are three other men who landed the same day, 23/10/14 - One of whom got his Clasp & Roses issued in Sept 1931

Others on earlier pages, landing 9/10/1914, had theirs issued in 1930, 31 & 38, others landing later were also issued in the 1930s.  Some of the earlier landings got C&R in the 1920s.

The majority of men on these pages of the Roll do not have C&R issues.

I think some men applied for their C&R

Perhaps others didn't know or bother about them.

???

:-) M

I hadn't thought of looking for nearby numbers. Brilliant info there. Thanks for that Matlock1418

I won't  be retrospectively "awarding" the clasp to him. I recall a discussion here some time ago that rightly concluded it was wrong to do so.

Nice to have another piece of his history.

Dave

[Jervis]

That is interesting. My great grand Uncle who was in the same draft did not apply for his C&R either. He can’t have been completely ignorant of it, his brother received his C&R for service with 15/Hussars. 
 

 

[depaor01]

I wonder could the non-claiming be a reluctance to have an OHMS letter seen to be delivered to your address  in Ireland during the post 1920 period while immediately post war it wouldn't have been seen as troublesome. 

 

Dave

[FROGSMILE]

It would be more important if a veteran was intending (and able to) attend gatherings with his old comrades where they could all safely wear their medals.  If, on the other hand, that wasn’t possible and the medals instead sat in a drawer to be taken out just occasionally for moments of personal and private reflection, then the possession of the C&R would, I think be less meaningful.

Edited 7 April , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Jervis]

59 minutes ago, depaor01 said:

I wonder could the non-claiming be a reluctance to have an OHMS letter seen to be delivered to your address  in Ireland during the post 1920 period while immediately post war it wouldn't have been seen as troublesome. 

 

Dave

Yeah I did think that could be a possibility, and maybe true for your ancestor but I think in my man’s case it is unlikely for a couple of reasons (1) he came from the slums - where the overwhelming majority of households had a soldier(s) in the family. So he would be nothing unusual amongst his family and neighbours. (2) he was proud of service and referred to himself as an ex. Soldier in later official documents (3) he claimed the SWB - “I think” he would have had to proactively claim that. 

 

So I simply don’t know why he did not claim the C&R. These were reservists called up to fill the losses in the original BEF, maybe they were ignorant of their entitlement? 

[depaor01]

Interesting views. Thanks. So to clarify - the annotation on the MIC is a record of issue as opposed to simply entitlement...?

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, depaor01 said:

So to clarify - the annotation on the MIC is a record of issue as opposed to simply entitlement...?

Howard Williamson @collectorsguide is a man who can probably tell you extremely well - see his The Great War Medal Collectors Companion - so I hope he will note the mention and also reply to you.

My understanding is that MIC were primarily prepared for the 'engravers' to emboss the details on the Stars and BWM & VM - and were always, and certainly now are, commonly considered a de facto issue record.

I don't think they were intended as a full record but along the way they often became a record of some returns and reissues - most notably if a star/medal had to be returned and/or reissued for some purpose - e.g. if not actually delivered/deliverable or if it needed amendment etc.

Medal Rolls too became a partial record of issue - especially later ones, e.g. for C&R

Look out for the iv or IV [issue voucher] notation on MIC and MR [of which there are none on your man's entries]

Remember, to differentiate between all the 1914 Stars issued the 1914 C&R were a later supplement for those who had been under fire [or considered within the range of enemy guns] - essentially an extra badge of honour.

Cards & Rolls were however were not intended as, nor are now, the be all and end all for issues.

I think for many men the C&R came as an automatic issue - but for others who were somehow missed and an application was required.

I don't think we can easily tell for your man - I guess you could try and see if the other men on the Medal Roll physically have a C&R on their Stars or elsewhere in their records [if you can find enough other examples to from an informed trend/opinion!]

The main real proof nowadays of issue, and receipt, I think are perhaps going to be those receipt slips returned and now held in some surviving Service Records [where they were returned and still exist having avoided the Luftwaffe's attention and consequential destruction] - but it will be a case finding enough of those records.

Such approaches won't be easy I fear.

As you now ponder, entitlement and issue [and receipt] are not necessarily the same.

Now I anxiously wait for HW to respond! :-/

:-) M

Edited 7 April , 2021 by Matlock1418
typo

[depaor01]

26 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Howard Williamson @collectorsguide is a man who can probably tell you extremely well - see his The Great War Medal Collectors Companion - so I hope he will note the mention and also reply to you.

My understanding is that MIC were primarily prepared for the 'engravers' to emboss the details on the Stars and BWM & VM - and were always, and certainly now are, commonly considered a de facto issue record.

I don't think they were intended as a full record but along the way they often became a record of some returns and reissues - most notably if a star/medal had to be returned and/or reissued for some purpose - e.g. if not actually delivered/deliverable or if it needed amendment etc.

Medal Rolls too became a partial record of issue - especially later ones, e.g. for C&R

Look out for the iv or IV [issue voucher] notation on MIC and MR [of which there are none on your man's entries]

Remember, to differentiate between all the 1914 Stars issued the 1914 C&R were a later supplement for those who had been under fire [or considered within the range of enemy guns] - essentially an extra badge of honour.

Cards & Rolls were however were not intended as, nor are now, the be all and end all for issues.

I think for many men the C&R came as an automatic issue - but for others who were somehow missed and an application was required.

I don't think we can easily tell for your man - I guess you could try and see if the other men on the Medal Roll physically have a C&R on their Stars or elsewhere in their records [if you can find enough other examples to from an informed trend/opinion!]

The main real proof nowadays of issue, and receipt, I think are perhaps going to be those receipt slips returned and now held in some surviving Service Records [where they were returned and still exist having avoided the Luftwaffe's attention and consequential destruction] - but it will be a case finding enough of those records.

Such approaches won't be easy I fear.

As you now ponder, entitlement and issue [and receipt] are not necessarily the same.

Now I anxiously wait for HW to respond! :-/

:-) M

Thanks for that. I did order the 'companion' for the library in which I work and I'll be there on Friday. I'll give it some scrutiny. 

[collectorsguide]

The MIC cards were given to a typist at MS3;who typed the details on a regimental list.The list was sent to the naming shop.In the case of the BWM/VM the firm of Wright and son of Edgware,who had the naming contract..

At the naming shop a typist who worked with an "engraver" typed the soldiers details on to a label which was stuck to the box of issue.

The engraver propped the box on the machine and named the medal from the details thereon.

BWMs and VMs were not named on the same machine.

Although the MICs contained the relevant details , they were kept at MS3 as a huge Roll of recipients.I saw the MIC ROLL at Hayes when I and two pals rescued the MM Cards due for disposal by incineration. They were housed in metal filing cabinets.

Notes were added later when enquiries etc were made.See page 168 onwards in the Companion Vol 1.(now completely out of print) best w, Howard 

[collectorsguide]

Hi I forgot to mention:the annotation "serving" indicates the man's medals would be presented to him on a parade not posted . best w, Howard

[depaor01]

8 hours ago, collectorsguide said:

The MIC cards were given to a typist at MS3;who typed the details on a regimental list.The list was sent to the naming shop.In the case of the BWM/VM the firm of Wright and son of Edgware,who had the naming contract..

At the naming shop a typist who worked with an "engraver" typed the soldiers details on to a label which was stuck to the box of issue.

The engraver propped the box on the machine and named the medal from the details thereon.

BWMs and VMs were not named on the same machine.

Although the MICs contained the relevant details , they were kept at MS3 as a huge Roll of recipients.I saw the MIC ROLL at Hayes when I and two pals rescued the MM Cards due for disposal by incineration. They were housed in metal filing cabinets.

Notes were added later when enquiries etc were made.See page 168 onwards in the Companion Vol 1.(now completely out of print) best w, Howard 

Thanks for that interesting and comprehensive detail Howard. Regarding the annotation "Clasp and Roses" on the card, does this denote the issue or the entitlement prior to issue? 

Dave

[Jervis]

10 hours ago, collectorsguide said:

Hi I forgot to mention:the annotation "serving" indicates the man's medals would be presented to him on a parade not posted . best w, Howard

Thank you for that information. I was wondering what it meant. 
 

Jervis

[Matlock1418]

 

Howard

Thanks for replying to this thread :-) 

On 11/04/2021 at 10:12, collectorsguide said:

the annotation "serving" indicates the man's medals would be presented to him on a parade not posted

Perhaps not in the case of Edward Connolly's comrades = ???

Image courtesy of Ancestry

Doesn't the "B 13-5-19", for all here, suggest otherwise in this case [(b) Despatched by Post] - there are other similar 'Serving' entries on earlier pages of this 1914 Star Medal Roll [the vast majority of all men on this MR also have the same annotation.

Seems to me there were some exceptions to the rule of (a) Presented on parade to Serving - aren't there always exceptions!?!?

Or have I mis-interpreted?

 

On 11/04/2021 at 10:08, collectorsguide said:

Notes were added later when enquiries etc were made.See page 168 onwards in the Companion Vol 1.

Unfortunately I don't have to hand.

For @depaor01 [and me!] - can you please help us further with that?

I can rather understand interest due to the absence of evidence of despatch, or elsewhere receipt presumably, of C&R.

 

Dave,

Note the 1931 issue entry for C&R by Crealy, as I mentioned in my earlier post.

:-) M

[charlie962]

12 hours ago, collectorsguide said:

The MIC cards were given to a typist at MS3;who typed the details on a regimental list.The list was sent to the naming shop.In the case of the BWM/VM the firm of Wright and son of Edgware,who had the naming contract..

At the naming shop a typist who worked with an "engraver" typed the soldiers details on to a label which was stuck to the box of issue.

The engraver propped the box on the machine and named the medal from the details thereon.

Fascinating detail

 

In other words,

Medal Roll typed up from a handwritten list prepared from ..??      (ie 2 transcriptions)
Medal Index Card written up from Medal Roll                                (ie 1 transcription)
Regimental List typed up from Medal Index Card                           ( ie 1 transcription)
Label typed up from Regimental List                                               (ie 1 transcription)
Medal engraved from Label                                                             (ie 1 transcription)

 

Total 6 transcriptions from original record to medal engraved. Rigorous double checking no doubt, but possibility for error huge.- was the engraved medal checked back to the Medal Roll before despatch to recipient, to close the loop ? Perhaps this is covered in your book ? (I only have one volume, I'm afraid, and most useful it is)

 

Charlie