Chris_Baker Posted 20 May , 2003 Share Posted 20 May , 2003 Demarcation Stone ... which one? The unique gravestone of Noel Chavasse VC and Bar, RAMC Not really the Salient, but not too far away. This is the preserved Belgian trench on the banks of the Yser just north of Diksmuide. The Dodengang, or Trench of Death, was overlooked from across the river by the enemy, and was in fact a cul-de-sac with only a broad sandbag bombing block separating it from the enemy on the same bank. It was also under enfilade fire from the height of an old flour mill on the far bank a little further south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zijde26 Posted 20 May , 2003 Share Posted 20 May , 2003 Chris, The following website http://www.wo1.be/eng/mainnav.html (click database , memorials) shows a lot of demarcation stones. I hope it gives a solution to the problem. Gilbert Deraedt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 21 May , 2003 Share Posted 21 May , 2003 Out of curiosity, what's the "brass"(?) plaque on the front of this demarkation stone? Dave. (PS. It's not the "Hellfire Corner" stone is it ?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain mchenry Posted 21 May , 2003 Share Posted 21 May , 2003 Dave, I'm nearly sure that its the Demarcation stone at Hellfire Corner. Its the only one around the salient that i've seen with a plaque on it. If I'm right then the plaque was put there by Tony and Valmai Holt. Hope I'm right!! Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 21 May , 2003 Share Posted 21 May , 2003 You're absolutely right mate. When are you coming over ?. The Ypres ladies are becoming distressed about you're long absence Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 21 May , 2003 Share Posted 21 May , 2003 ... (snip) ... If I'm right then the plaque was put there by Tony and Valmai Holt. Isn't it rather odd that private individuals can go round putting up plaques on what is an historic monument? Did they need permission? Did they get it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 21 May , 2003 Share Posted 21 May , 2003 The plaque wasn't put up by the Holts - it was a family who visited the battlefields a few years ago. I forget their name, but it is on the plaque and I suspect they did not have 'permission' to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 21 May , 2003 Share Posted 21 May , 2003 Difficult not to appear "sniffy" about this because no doubt the family had the purest motives but this really should not have been done. Semi permanent fixing of this plaque must damage the stone to a degree. Thinks ! I must get a plaque made in memory of my Great Uncle and fix it to something important in the Salient - perhaps that nice gate thing which has his name on it already and where they have those trumpeters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 21 May , 2003 Share Posted 21 May , 2003 Dave, I'm nearly sure that its the Demarcation stone at Hellfire Corner. Its the only one around the salient that i've seen with a plaque on it. Thought so....I think it's the only (British helmeted)one located in front of a bush/hedge in the area? You know, I've passed this stone countless times ,and never noticed the plaque! Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 21 May , 2003 Share Posted 21 May , 2003 I was near Hell Fire Corner this morning. If I had known ... But I'll go back asap (tomorrow ?), take a close-up and put it on the Forum. Aurel P.S. On second thoughts, I won't. For I'm sure that when Jacky reads these words he'll beat me. But apart from that, he is a nice old chap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 22 May , 2003 Share Posted 22 May , 2003 Hi, Thanks, Jacky, for letting me beat you ! You're even a nicer old chap than I thought ! It was not easy to make a close up of the plaque this morning, at least not a readable one. (Dark and cloudy and as a result of that my camera refused to let me come really close and autofocus) But this is the full text. Hellfire Corner This stone marks the spot of the German advance which was repelled by the allies (and then a poem of which I first intended to give only the first lines. But as I find it so poignant, and : written by a 12-year-old girl, I will give it in full) His War He gazes at the fading sun as it sets as he swallows foreign dust he prays silently, as do the others in their firm jaws, and tense faces they wait their hearts overflowing, with love for family he gasps, with determination, as they all do for their country they fight till death his friends are no exceptions, as he watches them die tears stream down his handsome face he realises they are his own he battles on Abigail Dale (age 12) Presented by the Dale family in honour of them all *** I will add a 'closer up' of the lower half in a coming posting. I do not know if this plaque covers an original text. I think it doesn't. I have a photo of this demarcation stone, but taken from the left side. As far as I know there was no lettering where the plaque is now ? Was the original text 'Here the invader was brought to a standstill (in French, Dutch or German) somewhere else on the demarcation stones (and later removed by the Germans (Trophäenbrigade) in WW 2 ?) Somewhere I read that one stone is preserved with this original text, but I don't remember where it is (was?) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 22 May , 2003 Share Posted 22 May , 2003 I was surprised to see that the quality (and readability) of the photo is even better than I thought. And that actually there is no need to add a close® up of the bottom half. But as I promised it in my preceding posting... (Sorry Chris, if the photos are too large. But I don't know how to make them smaller.) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 22 May , 2003 Share Posted 22 May , 2003 Now then theres another place I keep failing to find... bit like the Yorkshire trench!! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Mooney Posted 22 May , 2003 Share Posted 22 May , 2003 Pals, Is it just me, or does this plaque rather "tacky", especially on the face of such a well known monument? I find I must agree with IanW, whilst also trying to avoid being sniffy, that even the mode of attachment leaves me cold. Though motivations may be pure, I can't support the idea or execution. I beleive that private individuals and organizations should have some mechanisim for erecting newer monuments if they desire (with all proper permissions), but to affix a engraved plaque with epoxy to any monument at will cannot be supported. Next thing you know, everyone and his uncle are slapping plaques on stuff all over the front "In Memory"... I sincerely hope this is not a trend toward the future. My 'tuppence worth, Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 22 May , 2003 Share Posted 22 May , 2003 I'm not sure who put the demarcation stone there in the first place. The Touring club placed demarcation stones on different places in the Saliënt after WW1, and so did general Pulteney's Ypres League. As for the Ypres League, most of their demarcation stones have now gone, and I have mixed feelings about people fixing plaquets to maybe one of the last Ypres League demarcation stone.s The stone would not only be a reminder of the historical importance of Hellfire Corner, it would also be one of the last material remains of an ex-servicemen league that counted several hundreds of thousands members and disappeared after WW2. If the stone was put there by the League, it was payed for by their members. I don't think anyone should attach something to it without asking their permission, and since they are all gone now...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 22 May , 2003 Share Posted 22 May , 2003 Has a closer look, it's most likely put there by the Touring Club. You can recognise their stones by one of the three allied steel helmets on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 22 May , 2003 Share Posted 22 May , 2003 Bert, That's right, the Touring Club. After I took the photos this morning I brushed away the grass at the foot, and I saw the inscription Touring Club. (Unfortunately I did not read on, on the other sides. Was there also a reference to the Ypres League ? I don't know. Anyway, the demarcation stones were "the inspiration of the Touring Club de France, supported by the Belgian Touring Club and the Ypres League" (Major & Mrs Holt's "Ypres Salient") I did not add any comment this morning in my posting, on the impression the plaque made on me. (Except that I found the poem poignant.) But I mean : about sticking this plaque to a demarcation stone, in a tacky and rather sloppy way. But I did have the feeling of this should not have be done. However, as I haven't the faintest idea as to how and when and why and by who it was attached there, and as I would not know how to find out, I refrained to give my personal opinion. Had the plaque been somewhere else before ? (It looks quite new, but see the holes on both sides, which should have been used to attach it with screws. Or was the granite too hard for the drill ?) I was also puzzled that there was no reference to a specific soldier fallen in the area. (named Dale ?) A mystery to me ... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 23 May , 2003 Share Posted 23 May , 2003 I think the poem should be removed and placed somewhere else where it can still be read. Perhaps there is a need for a place in Ypres where messages such as this can be displayed . However please leave the various monuments alone ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 23 May , 2003 Share Posted 23 May , 2003 Ian, Yes, I think you are right. But don't you think first one should try to find out who put it there and why ? And what the poem (and the Dale family) has got to do with Hellfire Corner ? (Though I would not know how to.) Apart from that, this is not an ideal place. It's not exactly the spot where you on seeing the Stone can jump out of your car, leave it on the roundabout and examine it ! there must indeed be better places, even near Hellfire Corner. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 23 May , 2003 Share Posted 23 May , 2003 To be honest, I agree, but I don't think that it should be removed. it seems an age-old tradition to attach personal/individual "memorials" and tributes to war memorials and monuments. I've seen this practice in the Crimea , and South Africa (Zulu and Boer) and especially so on Franco-Prussian War monuments. I think it adds to the history of a monument ,the fact that somebody cared enough to place it in the first place. For this reason, I don't see a problem with it (in moderation!!!). Just because it's WW1 and "our" passion, I can't see why we should break with tradition. I must say, however, that most of the individual "tributes" of the past were placed against a monument and not actually "fixed" to it. Maybe it's just a sign of the times. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 24 May , 2003 Share Posted 24 May , 2003 Personally I am not happy with people attaching things to original memorials decades - aprroaching a hundred years - after an event, but each to their own, I suppose. But where does it end? I have already seen people super-glueing poppies to headstones, and when I finally got round to looking at this plaque last November was surprised at how crudely it had been attached. As Dave above says placing something in front of a memorial or grave is quite understandable - but once you have fixed it permanantly, you are, in effect, damaging it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lesley Posted 24 May , 2003 Share Posted 24 May , 2003 But where does it end? I have already seen people super-glueing poppies to headstones Whilst I wouldn't condone the defacing of any monument or headstone I can empathise with the super gluers, after placing an arrangement of poppies on Great Uncle Harrys grave which subsequently vanished. Do CWGC have a policy on removing personal tributes from graves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Thompson Posted 24 May , 2003 Share Posted 24 May , 2003 I can empathise with the super gluers Where do you draw the line between acts of commemoration and vandalism in these cases? Personally I agree with Paul and Ian that items should not be attached/fixed permanently to original monuments or headstones by any means. I don't see any problem with placing something in front of a memorial or headstone. I have placed a personal tribute (in this case a photograph, poem and flowers) in front of a couple of relatives headstones before as a mark of respect. Talking to one of the CWGC gardeners about this at the time he said that they would leave the personal tribute in place provided that it did not interfere with the maintenance or general appearance of (in this case) the cemetery. Once it was deemed that the personal tribute had deterioted through for example weathering or live flowers had died then it would be removed. I was quite happy with this approach though I cannot say whether this is official CWGC policy. Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 24 May , 2003 Share Posted 24 May , 2003 As Dave above says placing something in front of a memorial or grave is quite understandable - but once you have fixed it permanantly, you are, in effect, damaging it... Come to think of it ,most of the 1870-71 tributes that I've seen in France haven't been fixed to the monuments and ,though some are damaged (and some will have gone "walkies"), they've managed to survive 130 years without having to be permanently attached. Thinking this way, surely the WW1 tributes could be left alone in the same way without being fixed to a monument (I've come across a few F-P war monuments with personal memorials in quite "unsavoury" districts that have been left alone all this time). Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andigger Posted 13 December , 2004 Share Posted 13 December , 2004 Since this thread came up in another thread I thought I'd bring it to the top again. It is very interesting, and worth another read. I am curious thouugh if the plaque is still attached to the stone, and if it was ever determined who put it there. Here is the current thread, Western Front through the Ages.... http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=24461&hl= Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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