Identifying WWI Somme finds?

[Richard W]

Hi all, I am new here and would like to ask a question if I may and apologies if I am already breaking any forum rules:

I have recently returned from a very sobering visit to Ypres in Belgium and the Somme in France. As part of our visit we spent some hours combing the fields around some of the more fought over areas near the town of Albert. Fortunately the weather favoured us and we discovered quite a few artifacts just 'off-piste'. Many of these finds I have been able to identify successfully. However, there are a few which remain elusive. I roughly know what they came from, i.e. from a shell, but I cannot pinpoint the exact component we have brought home with us. Is it acceptable to the forum to photograph a few of these pieces in the hope that someone here will be able to tell me exactly what it is I have, please? They are rusty - well, they would be after 100 years lying on or under the chalky soils, I guess - but should be quite distinguishable to the right eyes, it's just that I cannot for definite place them precisely as I would like. Both my grandfathers fought and survived this horrendous chapter in human warfare - hence my interest in this war and the environs and monuments we were so lucky to visit in April. Many thanks, Rich

[Richard W]

Here are two photos. Both I think are from a shell or mortar, but I don't know which part(s) they are, if at all. Anyone any ideas please?

 

 

Edited 8 June , 2017 by Richard W

[Torrey McLean]

Hello, Richard -

 

Welcome to the forum!

 

The flat, round disk is a plate of an 18-pounder shrapnel shell; it was placed over the explosive charge and beneath the shrapnel balls.  When the charge in the shrapnel shell detonated, the plate pushed the shrapnel balls forward.

 

The longer piece is a loading plug for an explosive shell.  Since it was inert, it was a safety device that enabled loaded but unfused shells to be transported more safely than would have been the case with fused shells.  Before being fired it was unscrewed from the shell and discarded; a proper shell fuse was then screwed into the shell.

 

Both pieces are British.

 

Regards, Torrey

[Richard W]

Wow, thank you, Torrey. I had my suspicions about the plate (after looking at cut-away diagrams of shells on the forum) but I could not conclusively identify it. I thought the longer piece went into a shell somewhere, but I had no idea it was an inert loading plug and definitely not a fused shell. This helps so much, thank you. I have managed to find live bullets, shell and bullet cases, plus two live grenades (left at the roadside for the bomb disposal experts to remove, once I'd informed someone as to their whereabouts in the local village - and got over my initial shock after pulling them out of the ground!) all which are testament to the terrible action that took place there on 1st July. Cheers, I am a happy hunter again. Rich

Edited 8 June , 2017 by Richard W

[Ken Lees]

You pulled 100yr old grenades out of the ground and moved them to the side of the field?

 

I despair.

Edited 8 June , 2017 by Ken Lees

[chaz]

and lived !!

[GWF1967]

1 hour ago, Richard W said:

  I have managed to find live bullets, shell and bullet cases, plus two live grenades (left at the roadside for the bomb disposal experts to remove, once I'd informed someone as to their whereabouts in the local village - and got over my initial shock after pulling them out of the ground!) all which are testament to the terrible action that took place there on 1st July. Cheers, I am a happy hunter again. Rich

Next time you find one, best leave well alone! Then inform someone of the whereabouts.

 Experts in ordnance disposal are injured every year dealing with the iron harvest.

[Richard W]

Lol, yes. We did not realise what they were until we pulled them out of the soil - they were upside down at the time and the only thing visible was the ring on the base. Once we saw what we had we very carefully laid them on the ground at the side of the field before knocking on doors to ask, in my best French, for them to be reported to the disposal squads. Yes, we were lucky. We did leave all the live shells we saw well alone, though . Cheers, Rich

[KIRKY]

11 hours ago, Ken Lees said:

You pulled 100yr old grenades out of the ground and moved them to the side of the field?

 

I despair.

I heard of a couple of guys who take away the live grenades to their car where they have a vice and crack open the grenades for the brass plate. They must be bonkers!!

Only ever photograph anything live and walk away quickly.

Tony

[jonbem]

I was just wondering which group you fall into.......

a) Land Owner removing an item that disrupts the day to day pursuit of agriculture 

Official Ordnance Clearance Group who will make safe

c) Official Archaeological group who will properly record, make safe and use to educate others

d) "Treasure Hunter" who will use an item for "one-upmanship"! e.g. I have got a xxxxxxx, you have not!

e) "Treasure Hunter" who is looking to make money by flogging an item on ebay or other sales means.

 

please feel free to advise if I have neglected to mention a type.

I know there is no "Law of trespass" as such in France, but I don't know the law on the removal of items from someone elses land

 

[healdav]

15 minutes ago, jonbem said:

I was just wondering which group you fall into.......

a) Land Owner removing an item that disrupts the day to day pursuit of agriculture 

Official Ordnance Clearance Group who will make safe

c) Official Archaeological group who will properly record, make safe and use to educate others

d) "Treasure Hunter" who will use an item for "one-upmanship"! e.g. I have got a xxxxxxx, you have not!

e) "Treasure Hunter" who is looking to make money by flogging an item on ebay or other sales means.

 

please feel free to advise if I have neglected to mention a type.

I know there is no "Law of trespass" as such in France, but I don't know the law on the removal of items from someone elses land

 

The law is quite clear. Up to 10,000 euro fine, and six months prison. Of course, that is if you survive.

[trajan]

Now, now, now, chaps! Assuming RichardW really is a complete newbie, no need to take such a strong line in your condemnations - and I speak from the archaeological point of view in having a strong belief in NOT removing artefacts from anywhere!

[gilbo139]

Trajan, well said.........I started visiting the battlefields in 1986 just as a one off! .....or so I thought.....I discovered  that I had a Great Grandfather buried at Grove Town Cemetery,no family member had ever been to visit the grave so I went on Armistice day 1986...... Of course I visited many places and like so many caught the bug and have been back many times since. On that first visit one of my children found a trench mortar which we didn,t touch but in those days some of the deeper craters at Newfoundland Park still had artifacts at the bottom which couldd so easily have been accessed. My point is that although having no expertise in Great War history it's so easy as an ordinary man in the street to become so passionate about the subject and to ' feel' the atmosphere on visits that you want to pass all your experiences to others that may only have a passing interest.....which includes the removal of artifacts. I abhor the thought of disturbing the ground in the search for items although I,ve seen many doing it on one occasion near Mametz seeing a fellow Engishman taking an 18 pounder shell apart with a hammer and chisel!  It is inevitable that you find artifacts lying on the surface and of course if not obvious as to what it is you really wish you could find out. I think Richard has probably recieved guidance because of the attitude of some of the posts , although obviously great advice !!!!! But I also know where he,s coming from in wanting to find out more !

 

 

[Richard W]

1 hour ago, jonbem said:

I was just wondering which group you fall into.......

a) Land Owner removing an item that disrupts the day to day pursuit of agriculture 

Official Ordnance Clearance Group who will make safe

c) Official Archaeological group who will properly record, make safe and use to educate others

d) "Treasure Hunter" who will use an item for "one-upmanship"! e.g. I have got a xxxxxxx, you have not!

e) "Treasure Hunter" who is looking to make money by flogging an item on ebay or other sales means.

 

please feel free to advise if I have neglected to mention a type.

I know there is no "Law of trespass" as such in France, but I don't know the law on the removal of items from someone elses land

 

 

And when the farmer who actually owns the field passes us in his tractor, slows down deliberately to wave to us all and then "bonjours" with a thumbs-up after seeing us picking up rusted 'bits' from his field, obviously delighted that we were inadvertently helping him, I feel we were more than justified to continue looking. I do not believe that such strong condemnation is necessary, jonbem & healdav (whom I note is apparently making a little something from the monumental suffering the Allied soldiers were forced to endure in Europe (battlefield guiding). Nor is it called for, or actually worthy of this forum, which I had thought until this moment was very friendly and helpful!! I stand corrected, obviously.  

 

Also, since BOTH my grandparents were present in this area in 1916 (one of whom lost an eye at the Mesnil-Martinsart crossroads) and who fought for the rights of such as you to say what you wish like this without fear of reprisals I feel TOTALLY justified by my actions; particularly as the 'artifacts' we found were mainly spent shell cases, the odd bullet [there's millions of both still there for cataloging if you wish to go and do it for the rest of your lives? Always assuming that they are still there after the farmers have re-plowed them back into their fields, or passers-by like me have not removed them to either gloat over or sell on?] rusted shell pieces, shrapnel and various pieces of exploded grenades and shells etc etc etc.

I also don't fit into any of the categories above - unless it's c) where I AM using what we found to educate others (you know nothing about me, so keep your blinkered, misguided opinions to yourself until you know a person better) - so grow up and keep your supercilious thoughts to yourselves before you type in any more holier-than-thou cynicism. Keyboard warriors; you do not make amateur newbies feel welcome here at all. Shame on you!! Thank you for some kind words anyway, trajan, appreciated.

[jonbem]

My apologies if you feel offended. I'm sure you will appreciate there are lots of people who fall into the groups I suggested, but your motives were unclear in your previous posts,

 

regards

Jon

[Richard W]

Just seen your post, gilbo 139, thank you also. To clarify: we dug nowhere, we disturbed nothing, we left live ordinance well alone (grenades the exception, but they were a surprise too and not necessarily a pleasant one at the time) we picked up shell fragments and a couple of shell components - leaving many of the same where they were - and a few bullet cases. Everything was lying on the surface, or barely buried by the ploughing that has been continuing for 100 years and will continue to be done infinitum. These small pieces are not notable, or even rare 'artifacts' as such, since they are everywhere if you look closely. It is a bug that has caught and it is not the first time I have been to the Somme (and Ypres) - taking different family members each time - and our field-edge walking was a only a tiny amount of time we spent there, the remainder was spent visiting the memorials and graveyards and attempting to trace my grandparent's steps wherever possible - something I wondered if members here could help me with, but I am unsure about asking now if this is the sort of sniping a person receives when asking friendly questions?

[Richard W]

3 minutes ago, jonbem said:

My apologies if you feel offended. I'm sure you will appreciate there are lots of people who fall into the groups I suggested, but your motives were unclear in your previous posts,

 

regards

Jon

 

Thank you, Jon. I basically found 'scrap' but to be chastised like this as a 'glory hunter' is quite insulting. Look before you type, son. I am a Somme enthusiast and I am honouring my grandparents by visiting there. In 2014 I brought back 6" of barbed wire I found sticking out of the grass verge where I had parked my car and I gave this, plus an empty German shell case I saw next to it, to my mother. She broke down in tears immediately and could not stop thanking me enough for thinking of her and my grandfather, whom I am named after and who fought there. She tells me it is something she looks at every day and, perversely, brings back happy memories of her father and his love of the horses he had over there. That is another reason I go, but it's not on anyone's list of justifiable 'hunting' reasons. Cheers, Rich

[chaz]

Hi Richard,

we can be a bit critical at times and wait until you get to skindles!!

Ive got 3 or 4 great uncles in France and Germany , the 5th brother came back, my grandfather, albeit with a head wound. luckily, all of them have known graves. maybe it would be best to introduce yourself in the "Forum Pals" section so we can get to know you better.

[gilbo139]

Richard, yes I think we have a lot in common, the small amount of items I have found by the side of tracks whilst walking to memorials etc are all catalogued in  ' Grandads museum' as my Grandchildren call it! Each one wether it be a spent bullet ar small  piece of shell driving belt reminds me of a certain trip. I only pick up what is next to or on a path which is usually well worn by other visitors, probably my piece de resistance is a spent bullet case found just at the entrance to Grovetown which if you,ve never been there is fairly remote At my age and health problems I when I visit now I always treat it as it might be my last and to pick that up at the entrance gate to Great Grandads cemetery it's as though it was placed there for me so I can remember my visits. I too made a mistake on the forum once with a comment that was considered wrong so I am now more of a reader than a poster but don,t let it put you off because there are some really knowledgeable and helpful members that Don,t fly off the handle straight away!!!

regards Colin

[trenchtrotter]

Richard don't worry. Battlefield finds always provokes these type of replies. 

 

I have no no problem with field surface finds and you are paying your respects.

 

i suspect I would incur jonbems wrath too. 

 

Keep posting 

 

TT

[jonbem]

3 hours ago, jonbem said:

Official Ordnance Clearance Group who will make safe

 

If you noticed I did put the smiley by one group due to the effort made to report.

I guess I'm just a little jaded from past experience of some, including metal detectorists in this country doing the "nighthawking" on family land.

[josquin]

Richard,

I second Trenchtrotter's remarks in post 20.  The Forum is intended to encourage making enquiries and sharing information,

and this is what our online interchanges usually comprise.  Freedom of expression requires a mature degree of responsibility and tact.

Regrettably, such an ideal is usually exemplified in Forum threads, but not inevitably.  I find the negative responses to your post both

dismaying and inconsiderate, and I encourage you to continue posting to the Forum because the rewards far exceed the costs.

Your grandchildren are fortunate to have a grandfather who instills a knowledge of the importance of the past and ensures its

preservation.  Your post led to a highly informative thread, lapses notwithstanding, and I appreciate your initial contribution.

I join Trenchtrotter in encouraging you to "Keep Posting!".

Best regards,

Josquin

 

[depaor01]

H Richard W,

 

Welcome to the forum. I can vouch for the normally non-hostile nature of this forum having been here for years.

 

In the header for the "Western Front" you will see a note:

"This forum does not condone in any way the removal of relics from the battlefields. In particular, members are reminded that all ammunition is dangerous. Shells, mortar rounds, grenades etc should be left well alone and not handled. People die and are seriously injured still by these relics. Do not forget that artillery rounds may contain poison gas."

 

This is the official line, and generally good advice.

 

The arrival of a new member talking about finding explosives in the Somme can "draw fire" from members here, many of whom are actively working in the field of UXB disposal. Search this forum and you'll find accounts of lunatics driving through the tunnel with boots full of grenades. You are quite obviously not one of those.

 

I wouldn't take anything that has been said personally (although some of it I would agree was a bit "snarky").

 

Keep posting!

 

Dave

 

 

[MikeyH]

Richard,

 

Welcome and please keep posting, you will find a wealth of generously shared knowledge on all kinds of matters, both erudite and commonplace here on the Forum.

 

Mike.

[Richard W]

In the spirit of goodwill and a 'thank you' to everyone for your kind and encouraging posts I have attached two photos of our little collection of finds - or 'treasures' as my, wait for it......................26 year old son, yes 26, calls them. As you can see, to most people it's just rusty junk, but not to me and my family - hence my primary post asking for a little identification. My wife is currently making a framed display of the items each of my sons found to hang on the walls of their respective houses. There are stories, honour, bravery and horror here and, as we wrote in the memory book at the Australian memorial in April, "We will never allow anyone to forget!" Thanks all, my enthusiasm for the forum is restored. Cheers, Rich