Scots words

[Neill Gilhooley]

According to a copy of the 9th Royal Scots magazine, the Depot want to know: ‘If it is the case that special lectures have been given to our English “transfers” on the subject of  “Caeskilohr,” and how many of them can pronounce it’

I'd like to know too, what is caeskilohr?

 

On the subject there is a fine song from the 51st Division's 'Turnip Tops' (though he might mean the Balmorals?) remembered by Andrew Bain here (audio):

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80000374 REEL 2 10:10-10:40

 

I make this out to be:

 

The Hielan Division

When war was declared the chief of the Huns,

Thought he’d march across France wi’ his men and his guns,

But there’s ane thing to mind when makin’ provision,

He didn’t atak’ count of the Heilan Division

Men fro the Tweed up to old John O’Groats

Brought up on porridge and haggis and oats

Oor Willie wee man t’was a’born for a mission omission???

He didn’t atak’ count of the Heilan Division

 

Clearly, I'm struggling with the penultimate line...!

 

[rolt968]

How about this?

 

The Heilan’ Division (to the tune of Bonnie Dundee)

When war was declared the chief o’ the Huns

Thocht he’d march across France wi’ his men and his guns.

But there’s ae thing tae mind when [y’re] mackin’ provison

He didna tak coont o’ the Hielan’ Division

[There wis] Men frae the Tweed up to auld John O’ Groats

Brocht up on porridge an’ haggis an’ oats.

Oor Wullie, wee man, twas a mournful omission;

He didna tak coont o’ the Hielan’ Division.

 

RM

[Ron Clifton]

Google fails to turn up anything resembling "caeskilohr", either as Lowland Scots or as Scottish Gaelic.

 

Ron

PS Except possibly this thread.

Edited 8 April , 2017 by Ron Clifton

[Ron Abbott]

There's something in this about The Turnip Tops and that song : -

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/history/podcasts/voices-of-the-first-world-war/podcast-44-wartime-leisure-and-entertainment

 

"In the Highland Division was a very good concert party called the Turnip Tops. And the score and the ballads were all made up by members of the division. Some of our divisional staff was musically inclined. And I still have the score of that Turnip Tops. The tunes are still excellent, you know, and the wording, you see. It was all taking off various people, you see. We had one song there, The Highland Division they called it. It started…

‘When war was declared the chief of the Huns / Thought he’d march across France wi’ his men and his guns / But there was naithing to mind / When making provision / He didn’t attack the Highland Division / Men for the tweed up to old John o’ Groats / Brought up on porridge and haggis and oats / A wee man it was a mission / He didn’t attack the Highland Division’"

 

As for 'caeskilohr'.....no idea.  Could it be a G rather than a C......as is 'gaes'......meaning go or goes?

 

Even if the spelling is completely wrong, and trying to pronounce it; I can't think of what it might be. 

 

 

 

[rolt968]

30 minutes ago, Ron Abbott said:

There's something in this about The Turnip Tops and that song : -

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/history/podcasts/voices-of-the-first-world-war/podcast-44-wartime-leisure-and-entertainment

 

"In the Highland Division was a very good concert party called the Turnip Tops. And the score and the ballads were all made up by members of the division. Some of our divisional staff was musically inclined. And I still have the score of that Turnip Tops. The tunes are still excellent, you know, and the wording, you see. It was all taking off various people, you see. We had one song there, The Highland Division they called it. It started…

‘When war was declared the chief of the Huns / Thought he’d march across France wi’ his men and his guns / But there was naithing to mind / When making provision / He didn’t attack the Highland Division / Men for the tweed up to old John o’ Groats / Brought up on porridge and haggis and oats / A wee man it was a mission / He didn’t attack the Highland Division’"

 

When you listen to podcast 44, that bit is actually an extract from the Andrew Bain recording we started with.

 

I wonder if "caeskilohr" is an Englishman's (or even Edinburgh man's) phonetic spelling of something? For a start is the ae pronounced as a long I or as ay?  Could it be Gaelic? (Seems unlikely for the RS but remember it was 9 (Highland) Battalion.)

 

RM

[Ron Abbott]

5 hours ago, rolt968 said:

When you listen to podcast 44, that bit is actually an extract from the Andrew Bain recording we started with.

 

I wonder if "caeskilohr" is an Englishman's (or even Edinburgh man's) phonetic spelling of something? For a start is the ae pronounced as a long I or as ay?  Could it be Gaelic? (Seems unlikely for the RS but remember it was 9 (Highland) Battalion.)

 

RM

 

 

It's not Scots Gaelic.  The 'k' makes that fairly apparent. 

 

Phonetic for something?  Yes, I think so....it could be what they considered to be what something in the Gaelic sounded like, I've no idea what! 

[healdav]

You obviously didn't follow Parliamo Glasgow.

Stanley Baxter.

[seaJane]

Having impaired hearing in the range of human speech this is the sort of thing i have to do all the time when listening, or trying to correct transcripts - but this has me stumped, unless -ohr = hour.

[IanA]

A not altogether convincing solution to 'caeskilohr' - the Gaelic phrase 'caise gu leor' could be represented by your nonsense word. Unfortunately, it translates as something like 'plenty cheese'.  

[seaJane]

Yes, one would expect uisge!

[MBrockway]

Some time spent in my ancient, battered copy of the Concise Dictionary of the Scots Language, its swanky new online equivalent (the DSL), and a couple of my Gaelic-English dictionaries has failed to turn anything up for caeskilohr.

 

It doesn't seem to break down into standard components of either Scots or Gaelic.

 

I had wondered if caisg might be closer for caesk in the first part, and kil (church) is a common word Scottish stem, but lohr or ohr scream Germanic to me.

 

Gaelic Caisg means Easter, or as a verb, to stop, restrain or check, but I got no further than that.

 

Tried a few English-Gaelic regimental tradition candidates too - e.g. sword dance - no luck!

 

I also speculated it might be a place name of importance to the battalion, but no caeskilohr in Google Maps, nor in the Royal Scots battle honours.

 

Lastly I tried the History of the Royal Scots - caeskilohr is in neither text nor index

 

Stumped as well

[seaJane]

I'm quite taken with -kilohr being a transcript of galore.

 

Any chance that caes- whether pronounced keys/seize, keess/cease, kyse/syce, kyze/size etc has anything to do with fighting?

[MBrockway]

Galore certainly works as an option for me too.

 

Gaelic sgilear, (pr. skel'-ur) adj. skilful ... possible do you think?

 

Gaelic sg is often transcibed/pronounced into English sk - e.g. sgithean dubh

 

It's either

cae-skil-ohr

caes-kilohr

caes-kil-ohr

caesk-i-lohr

caesk-il-ohr

 

ae is not common in Gaelic.

 

Could well be an informal attempt at a transcription, but not following standard approaches.

 

[IPT]

I suspect it's "case of lager", most likely Special Brew. This is the Caledonian pronunciation following the consumption of said case of lager.

 

Pollis - "Now then laddie. Whit've ye bin drankin?"

Citizen - "A wee caes-kil-ohr... caesk-i-lohr...case o... ach ah dinnae ken".

Pollis - "Your nicked, sonny" 

[rolt968]

On ‎07‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 16:21, rolt968 said:

How about this?

 

The Heilan’ Division (to the tune of Bonnie Dundee)

When war was declared the chief o’ the Huns

Thocht he’d march across France wi’ his men and his guns.

But there’s ae thing tae mind when [y’re] mackin’ provison

He didna tak coont o’ the Hielan’ Division

[There wis] Men frae the Tweed up to auld John O’ Groats

Brocht up on porridge an’ haggis an’ oats.

Oor Wullie, wee man, twas a mournful omission;

He didna tak coont o’ the Hielan’ Division.

 

RM

 

I slightly regret this. I have spent the weekend unable to get the tune Bonnie Dundee out of my mind. I don't even like it much!

[Ron Clifton]

12 hours ago, MBrockway said:

Galore certainly works as an option for me too.

 

Gaelic sgilear, (pr. skel'-ur) adj. skilful ... possible do you think?

 

Gaelic sg is often transcibed/pronounced into English sk - e.g. sgithean dubh

 

It's either

cae-skil-ohr

caes-kilohr

caes-kil-ohr

caesk-i-lohr

caesk-il-ohr

 

ae is not common in Gaelic.

 

Could well be an informal attempt at a transcription, but not following standard approaches.

 

It strikes me as odd that a regimental magazine could not spell correctly a word which apparently meant something special to the regiment! I wonder if the extract came from a humorous item, the relevance of which has been lost with time.

 

I like the suggestion of "cheese galore" - I wonder if it refers to a regimental mess custom, or refers to some inter-battalion or inter-regimental rivalry? Or was it the kind of in-joke played on Englishmen?

 

Ron

[MBrockway]

1 hour ago, rolt968 said:

 

I slightly regret this. I have spent the weekend unable to get the tune Bonnie Dundee out of my mind. I don't even like it much!

When we were up in Auld Reekie last year for the Tattoo, we stayed in a hotel in West Port - as in "Unhook the West Port and let us gae free ..." etc. - and I had the same experience - the tune just kept popping up in my head!

[Neill Gilhooley]

Thanks to all, hope it more a puzzle than hard work, I apologise for not getting back sooner (and for the unwanted tunes).

Here's the quote under 'Things the Depot Staff want to know', published 1st Nov 1916

 

15 hours ago, seaJane said:

Any chance that caes- whether pronounced keys/seize, keess/cease, kyse/syce, kyze/size etc has anything to do with fighting?

I have wondered if it starts with "See us a" meaning lend, as in see's a bob?

 

On 07/04/2017 at 16:21, rolt968 said:

Oor Wullie, wee man, twas a mournful omission;

This looks good!

Neill

 

[Neill Gilhooley]

That 'mournful omission' turned up this, with far more verses, thanks:

http://www.mcjazz.f2s.com/WW1_WarBonds.htm 

Edited 10 April , 2017 by Neill Gilhooley

[Ron Clifton]

"Things the Depot Staff want to know" has echoes of the frequent question "Things we want to know" which used to appear in the Wipers Times. It does add a little extra weight to the theory that it was some kind of an in-joke.

 

Ron

[rolt968]

2 hours ago, MBrockway said:

When we were up in Auld Reekie last year for the Tattoo, we stayed in a hotel in West Port - as in "Unhook the West Port and let us gae free ..." etc. - and I had the same experience - the tune just kept popping up in my head!

 

In the version I learned it was "unloose...."

 

From an unknown source (just possibly early Billy Connolly, but I think earlier:

"What's the West Port?"

"A thing you unloose!"

For some reason I had never associated it with the one in Edinburgh!

RM

[rolt968]

1 hour ago, Neill Gilhooley said:

That 'mournful omission' turned up this, with far more verses, thanks:

http://www.mcjazz.f2s.com/WW1_WarBonds.htm 

 

That scans rather differently, I think.

RM

[rolt968]

Along the lines of its being a leg pull, I wonder if "Caeskilohr" turns out to be something embarassing if asked or said on the streets of Edinburgh or indeed in French estaminet?

RM

[Neill Gilhooley]

Quelle heure?

[seaJane]

Qu'est-ce que l'heure? - What is the time?

French - English