Vincent Allen Alfred Pearse, Volunteer Artillery Battery (Non Commemoration)

[charlie962]

I started a thread here. Because it is wider than just Pearse, I have not asked for it to be moved to this forum?  Anyway in essence:

I started researching this man after finding him in the casualty list of 16/4/17:
Forename          V
Surname       Pearse
Casualty Status   Previously Reported Believed Taken Prisoner At Kut-El-Amara, Now Reported Died As Prisoner
Rank               Gunner
Service Number       48
Regiment       Volunteer Artillery Battery
Daily List Date   16th April 1917  

 

Soldiers Effects have an entry for VA Pearce, Gnr, no48, of the Volunteer Artillery Battery.

 

The BWM/VM Roll on Ancestry notes him as died and has address of NoK

 

Bardess said:
Vincent Allen Alfred Pearse was born on 29/1/88 and was baptised at All Saints Cathedral, Bathurst, NSW on 15/2/88. His parents were Alfred and Caroline Elizabeth. This can be confirmed on FindmyPast or Ancestry.

The Bathurst newspaper article 27/11/17 describes how Vincent Pearse died just after the fall of Kut (which was 29/4/16)

No trace found on CWGC memorials. Nor did I find him on SDGW. Nor could I find a death cert or Probate record.  So I think it might be a case needing your help?

 

This is very similar to Christison of the same unit who you recently 'brought in'. Both died 1/5/16 probably from same cause- turkish biscuits- that killed two hundred starving prisoners.

 

Charlie

Edited 20 September , 2018 by charlie962

[Bardess]

I still think the only way forward is to send a PM to Terry Denham with a link to this thread

[charlie962]

diane, thanks, pm sent. Charlie

[rflory]

According to With the Volunteer Artillery Battery in Kut Mesopotamia 1915-16 by Major A. J. Anderson,  Bombardier Pearce died as a POW from Enteritis at Shamras on 2 May 1916.  It shows he was previously employed by Burma Oil Co. at Rangoon.

[MaureenE]

I'm not sure if there are different spellings, but on this map the place I think would be the place of death is spelt Shumran, on the Tigris, just north of Kut.

https://archive.org/stream/campaigninmesopo02mobe#page/n627/mode/1up

 

Cheers

Maureen

[charlie962]

Dick, thanks for the additional info.

Maureen

I would agree it is probably Shumran, the first assembly point a day's march from Kut. It was there that the death toll shot up due to disease and malnutrition and it was there that the soldiers first got to eat- the famous killer Turkish biscuit.

The AngloBurmeseLibrary has a list of Burmah Oil employees but open to subscribers only.

Charlie

[charlie962]

Just to re-open this thread, we still need another bit of evidence apparently to confirm this man's military existence. The discrepency on Army number on the medal Roll (45 as opposed to the correct 48) hasn't  helped. I've searched but find nothing.

 

Perhaps a death certificate was issued in Australia to his parents ? Can anyone help please?

 

Charlie

[Bardess]

I've searched Ancestry for a DC and Probate. Sorry, I've come up empty-handed. Unfortunately, Probate records are on microfiche only

[ss002d6252]

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Just to re-open this thread, we still need another bit of evidence apparently to confirm this man's military existence. The discrepency on Army number on the medal Roll (45 as opposed to the correct 48) hasn't  helped. I've searched but find nothing.

 

Perhaps a death certificate was issued in Australia to his parents ? Can anyone help please?

 

Charlie

Have CWGC rejected him ?

 

Craig

[charlie962]

3 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

Have CWGC rejected him ?

".. he is on our 'Likely but Stalled' list. " Hence my re-opening the thread.

Charlie

Edited 20 September , 2018 by charlie962

[MaureenE]

Could the CWGC  request a copy of the information from  With the Volunteer Artillery Battery in Kut Mesopotamia 1915-16 by Major A. J. Anderson which is available in manuscript from IWM as per post 4 by rflory

The document is described in this archived link, which gives the IWM reference  AJA/1. pages 1-5

https://web.archive.org/web/20141027110711/http://apps.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=062-aja2&cid=-1#-1

 

I doubt that there will be any other information.

I looked in the India Office Wills etc on findmypast, but there was no record. However, this is not surprising. This is a young man born in Australia, from Bathurst NSW, (whose next of kin, his father, resides in Bathurst), who has moved to Rangoon, then part of India, probably for work purposes, and enlisted there.  As his father was next of kin, he does not appear to have married, and probably had no assets left in Burma, or Australia which would necessitate probate.

 

As a Volunteer from India, he is regarded as part of the Indian Army. This is confirmed by   the Medal Roll ,  as the Medal  Roll is signed on behalf of the Government of India. The Government of India has said he died in Mesopotamia.  There is also a Soldiers Effects record.

 

Major Anderson who commanded the Volunteer Artillery Battery has said  Bombardier Pearce died as a POW from Enteritis at Shamras on 2 May 1916. as per post 4 by 4 flory.

 

Why is the CWGC not prepared to accept a statement by Bombardier Pearse/Pearce's Commanding Officer? What other information does the GWGC think would be available?

If there ever was a death certificate issued, it could only be issued on information provided by Major Anderson. Does the CWGC realise that Major Anderson was the Commanding Officer?

 

Cheers

Maureen

[charlie962]

Maureen

I agree with what you say and I had previously provided the link to this thread. When I enquired as to progress, the 'likely but stalled file' was the reply. I have already asked IWM about getting a copy of the Anderson transcript (which I would like for other research) but so far have just received the standard reply that they are terribly busy and cannot say when and if they will have time to respond to my enquiry.

 

I am surprised that the (usually very reliable) Soldiers Effects entry, backed up with Casualty List, Medal Roll (but with incorrect number 45),Newspaper clipping and Anderson quote, is insufficient but ...

 

That is why I have asked here to see if anyone can find anything new- death cert in Australia or, as you say, some Probate record, apllied for perhaps by the parents.

 

Charlie

Edited 21 September , 2018 by charlie962

[Bardess]

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

That is why I have asked here to see if anyone can find anything new- death cert in Australia

 

See post #8

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, Bardess said:

See post #8

Missed that. Thanks for trying.

Charlie

[Guest]

Vincent Allen Alfred Pearse (1888 - 1917) born Bathurst Jan. 29th. 1888 bapt. All Saint’s Cathedral, Bathurst, Feb. 15th. 1888, the son of Alfred Pearse (1859 - 1929) & Caroline Elizabeth Giffin (1865 - 1901).. His father arrived as a draper aboard the Orient Steamship Co.’s RMS Garonne in Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Oct. 19th. 1879. At this stage it would seem his father Alfred was the son of carver and guilder George Pearse (1813 - 1879) & Mary Parnisse nee Longley (1828 - 1863), and born at Benthal Green, Middlesex, England Jul. 18th. 1859. His mother Caroline was the daughter of Alexander Giffin (1828 - 1916) & Elizabeth Betbelcher nee Frogley (1826 - 1927) and born at Lagoon (now Lake Bellevue) on Campbell’s River near Bathurst, New South Wales Jan. 16th. 1865. According to his father's obituary in 1929 he.started a business for himself as a draper in George Street, Bathurst and when he relinquished the business entered the employ of Messrs. John Meagher (1836 - 1920) & Co. where he remained after the business was taken over by Messrs. Mockler Brothers, about a couple of years ago. He also took a keen interest in Lodge matters, and was a prominent member of the local branch of the Grand United Order of Oddfellows.”

[charlie962]

Giffin Family

Just seen your post. I did not receive a system notification. I've sent you a pm.

Charlie

[charlie962]

On 19/07/2019 at 17:23, Giffin Family said:

Vincent Allen Alfred Pearse (1888 - 1917) born Bathurst Jan. 29th. 1888 bapt. All Saint’s Cathedral, Bathurst, Feb. 15th. 1888, the son of Alfred Pearse (1859 - 1929) & Caroline Elizabeth Giffin (1865 - 1901)

Geof,

Welcome to the forum and many thanks for this input.

 

Your response to my pm is all interesting stuff. If there is no Death Cert or registration  in Australia perhaps there is a will registered ? I don't know how it works in Australia.

 

I am certain that Pearse's body would not have been repatriated to Australia.

 

The lack of an official death notification is apparently causing the reluctance to accept him by the CWGC. -Compounded by slight cofusion over Service numbers on the different docs found so far.

 

Any help very much appreciated.

 

Charlie

 

 

[MaureenE]

 I noticed a reference to this man on your other topic.

 

The following is perhaps too vague to be helpful, but perhaps worth documenting.

 

The General Register Office (UK) has a set of records "War Deaths Indian Services 1914-1921" from which you can order a death certificate (fee applies).

 

The problem is that an Index for these records is not widely available, if at all, and there are no details of what is included.

 

There used to be an Index at  the now closed Family Records Centre which was a joint venture  of the  GRO and The National Archives until 2008, so possibly this Index now may be available at the National Archives. However I have not been able to locate a catalogue reference either through the Discovery catalogue, or the National Archives Library catalogue.

 

The War Deaths Indian Services Index is NOT included on the Findmypast  dataset  "British Armed Forces and Overseas  Deaths" which includes the other GRO Indexes

 

Some others in the past have tried to find out information from the GRO without much success , but the GRO  advised  me recently it is possible to "place an order quoting ‘War Deaths Indian Services 1914-1921’ and we can carry out a search of the indexes for you. If the search is unsuccessful, ...a refund will be issued. This is the fee you paid less any administrative costs incurred...."

 

A genealogy society in Melbourne, Australia has part of this Index which appear to be   Officers only, and it is unknown whether the full GRO Index is also Officers  only, or also contains "other ranks", of which there would probably be relatively few. I have written to the GRO regarding this aspect, but have not received a reply.

 

The database "War Deaths Indian Services 1914-1921" is mentioned in the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Chaplains Returns https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Chaplains_Returns#Accessing_the_above_British_Army_Overseas_Indexes

 

I think part of the problem with records for Pearse is that he was Artillery, all of which was Royal Artillery (British Army), so strictly speaking all his records should have been Royal Artillery. However, for administrative purposes he seems to have been treated as Indian Army, when in fact there was no Indian Army Artillery, so no one really  seems to have been responsible for him.

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

 

 

 

 

[charlie962]

Maureen, many thanks.

You understand this GRO business far better than I . I am interested to learn there is a War Deaths Indian Services 1914-1921 index or database somewhere that might become accessible one of these days.

 

9 hours ago, Maureene said:

I think part of the problem with records for Pearse is that he was Artillery, all of which was Royal Artillery (British Army), so strictly speaking all his records should have been Royal Artillery. However, for administrative purposes he seems to have been treated as Indian Army, when in fact there was no Indian Army Artillery, so no one really  seems to have been responsible for him.

In his case he was Volunteer Artillery Battery which was more in the line of all those other Volunteer/ AFI etc units in India. So he falls into that void of confused responsibility, particularly for record archives.

 

It is frustrating. We know he died but we cannot get him commemorated.  Just to recap, we still have not found:

A death certificate

A will

Perhaps something in Burmah Oil archives ?

 

and the statement by his Commanding Officer, Major Anderson is seemingly insufficient.

 

Yet we have a Soldiers Effects record for a man that is not commemorated.

 

Charlie

Edited 4 July , 2020 by charlie962

[MaureenE]

 

 

Further to the GRO database "War Deaths Indian Services 1914-1921" the GRO (being  Customer Correspondence Unit, Civil Registration Her Majesty's Passport Office, General Register Office  grofirstpointofcontact@   gro.gov.uk (join up the email address))  has recently advised

"The index should include all ranks and not just officers"

 

Note the wording states should, rather than does.

 

As advised in post 18 above, the GRO  advised  me recently it is possible to "place an order quoting ‘War Deaths Indian Services 1914-1921’ and we can carry out a search of the indexes for you. If the search is unsuccessful, ...a refund will be issued. This is the fee you paid less any administrative costs incurred...."

 

Perhaps it would be worth while asking the GRO to search ‘War Deaths Indian Services 1914-1921, with the proviso it will cost you at least some money, whether there is a record or not.

Edited 28 July , 2020 by Maureene

[charlie962]

thanks Maureene. Will reflect !

charlie