charlie962 Posted 23 March , 2017 Share Posted 23 March , 2017 (edited) This man, VA Pearce, Gunner, Volunteer Artillery Battery, service number 48, is shown in Soldiers Effects as dying on or after 1.5.1916; But I am blowed if I can find him on CWGC. He was probably taken prisoner at the fall of Kut, Mesopotamia and could have died of wounds or disease. I am pretty sure he would still have been on active service. His death could be Iraq or India maybe?Can anyone do better, please? I have found a Times Casualty list saying VL Pearse, number 48, Volunteer Artillery Battery, so I am not 100% sure on spelling. But Effects are pretty carefull. Charlie Edit- FMP says number 45 not 48., Ancestry BWMVM Roll confirms. But still no CWGC Edited 25 March , 2017 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted 23 March , 2017 Share Posted 23 March , 2017 Can't find a medal card with that number. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 23 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 23 March , 2017 Sam, see my edit, service number sb 45. There is a MIC for this and on Ancestry a Roll. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 23 March , 2017 Share Posted 23 March , 2017 (edited) There's no war gratuity on that entry so there should be another entry somewhere for him if he died - if he didn't qualify (which would be unusual) the entry should be marked as such. It is sometimes the case where men were later found to be POW's - the wages etc were settled up but the man was later located the war gratuity began to be paid in 1919. EDIT: Vol. Artillery - which unit was that ? Craig Edited 23 March , 2017 by ss002d6252 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 23 March , 2017 Share Posted 23 March , 2017 (edited) The Medal Rolls Index Card for a soldier in an Indian Volunteer Battery would not be available in the British Army series. It should be available from The National Archives (online for a fee). It looks as if VA Pearce is another soldier from the Indian Volunteer Batteries who did at Kut or after being taken prisoner who is not in the CWGC database. You might like to look at a similar case here: RM Edited 23 March , 2017 by rolt968 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 23 March , 2017 Share Posted 23 March , 2017 1 minute ago, rolt968 said: The Medal Rolls Index Card for a soldier in an Indian Volunteer Battery would not be available in the British Army series. It should be available from The National Archives (online for a fee). It looks as if VA Pearce is another soldier from the Indian Volunteer Batteries who did at Kut or after being taken prisoner who is not in the CWGC database. You might like to look at a similar case here: RM That would explain the lack of a war gratuity but I'm surprised that they would be listed on the effects records - I wonder what the terms of their engagement were. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 23 March , 2017 Share Posted 23 March , 2017 The Christison Effects entry is here: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60506/42511_6129999_0071-00288?pid=834892&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DqZO18%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3DUKArmyRegistersEffects%26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsln%3DChristison%26gsln_x%3DNN%26_F8007A65%3D17%26_F8007A65_x%3D1%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3D1fc%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D0%26h%3D834892%26recoff%3D5%2063%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=qZO18&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 23 March , 2017 Share Posted 23 March , 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, rolt968 said: The Christison Effects entry is here: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60506/42511_6129999_0071-00288?pid=834892&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DqZO18%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3DUKArmyRegistersEffects%26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26gsln%3DChristison%26gsln_x%3DNN%26_F8007A65%3D17%26_F8007A65_x%3D1%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3D1fc%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D0%26h%3D834892%26recoff%3D5%2063%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=qZO18&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true RM I see the man below, Ellis, is also the same unit. It's unusual to see the War Office paying men and handling their estates but them not being eligible for the war gratuity (I double checked the Army Order and they're definitely not listed as a qualifying unit). Another little thing regarding the War Gratuity that I'll make note of. Craig Edited 23 March , 2017 by ss002d6252 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 23 March , 2017 Share Posted 23 March , 2017 Any use? Rangoon, June 5. An official communication has been received from the Adjutant-General in India, giving the following twenty-eight names of non-commissioned officers and men from the Volunteer Artillery Battery, who were made prisoners at Kut. Sergeants Heals and Rollo; Bombardier Baroni, Christison, and Gunners Wells, Abrahams, Archer, Ariss, Dias, Illingworth, Lether, Ghosh, Macgowan, Grant, Mitchell, Prazer, Wall, Foley, Lecky, Thompson, Loader, Pearse, Sharp, Sirt, Warson, Blazey, Dawes, Webb and Wilcox "Rangoon Volunteers In Kut". (1916, Jun 07), page 7. The Times of India Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 23 March , 2017 Share Posted 23 March , 2017 It would be worth looking to see if there is probate for V A Pearce anywhere - probably starting with India. RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 23 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 23 March , 2017 (edited) Craig, Since the actual payments for these men were handled in India, wouldn't any gratuity calc be done by them? RM The shady preview of MIC on NatArchives gives little away! The Roll on Ancestry is clear. In view of IPT's list probate probably Burma? or does this come under India? IPT Very useful to me anyway. Thanks Neither Pearse nor Webb are on CWGC although Times Casualty list reports them as died Charlie Edit I see Christison is on the Basra Memorial per CWGC. Is this as a result of the thread referred to above? Edited 23 March , 2017 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 23 March , 2017 Share Posted 23 March , 2017 Looks like IPT has found the correct spelling of his surname Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 23 March , 2017 Share Posted 23 March , 2017 There probably won't be much on the MIC. I think only rank and number. The actual download is clearer than the preview, but the TNA MICS show only one side. (I suspect there probably wasn't anything anyway. It's how I got Christison's number since the Registers of Effects weren't out then. Burma was then part of India. Christison has probate in India and England. RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 23 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 23 March , 2017 (edited) If it helps, this was my working sheet on extracting CWGC records for the VolArty Bty in Mespot, after 1/1/16. You can see that inconsistant units make search more difficult! (edit - incidentally not all were taken at surrender of Kut, whether died before or after 29/4/16). Edited 23 March , 2017 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 23 March , 2017 Share Posted 23 March , 2017 13 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Craig, Since the actual payments for these men were handled in India, wouldn't any gratuity calc be done by them? RM The shady preview of MIC on NatArchives gives little away! The Roll on Ancestry is clear. In view of IPT's list probate probably Burma? or does this come under India? IPT Very useful to me anyway. Thanks Neither Pearse nor Webb are on CWGC although Times Casualty list reports them as died Charlie Edit I see Christison is on the Basra Memorial per CWGC. Is this as a result of t e thread referred to Men of the British Forces who died in India were still dealt with by the effects branch even though the initial payment from the estates may have been dealt with by the paymasters in India. What is unusual is for the effects branch to deal with men who weren't also in a position to qualify for a war gratuity. They must have been regarded as British Forces for the basis of the paymasters dealing with their wages but they were not regarded as British forces for gratuity purposes. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 23 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 23 March , 2017 Craig, I did note on the Casualty lists that they were under Indian Forces section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 23 March , 2017 Share Posted 23 March , 2017 22 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Edit I see Christison is on the Basra Memorial per CWGC. Is this as a result of the thread referred to above? Strictly speaking not on the actual Basra Memorial yet due to local conditions. Yes. RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 23 March , 2017 Share Posted 23 March , 2017 4 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Craig, I did note on the Casualty lists that they were under Indian Forces section. Curious. British for one thing, Indian for another. I wonder if the status changed at some point and the Indian Army took over the financial aspects. I might take a look at the Indian Army Orders when I'm next looking and see if they're mentioned. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 23 March , 2017 Share Posted 23 March , 2017 Pearse's Medal award roll on Ancestry HERE giving details of next of kin ect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 24 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 24 March , 2017 14 hours ago, IPT said: Sergeants Heals and Rollo; Bombardier Baroni, Christison, and Gunners Wells, Abrahams, Archer, Ariss, Dias, Illingworth, Lether, Ghosh, Macgowan, Grant, Mitchell, Prazer, Wall, Foley, Lecky, Thompson, Loader, Pearse, Sharp, Sirt, Warson, Blazey, Dawes, Webb and Wilcox "Rangoon Volunteers In Kut". (1916, Jun 07), page 7. The Times of India I have matched these names with my notes and have a number of differences in spelling. eg: Lecky, Thompson are the same man Lecky-Thompson (there was a Thompson in the VolArtyBty but he was a Calcutta man) Lether- Ihave no such name but I do have Lethbridge. Probably meant to be him. Sirt- I have Sirr Warson- I have two versions for same man, Walron and Watson! So one needs to be careful about placing too much reliance on a newspaper spelling! But a usefull check and confirms origin of some of the men. I have another man whose parents were Rangoon but he is not listed in this article. 14 hours ago, RaySearching said: Pearse's Medal award roll on Ancestry HERE giving details of next of kin ect This was the record I referred to in my first post. Perhaps I should have given the link then, because it is tricky to find. The NoK are New South Wales so perhaps an article in an Australian paper? But from what you have all said so far it is possible that, like Christison, he is not on CWGC but maybe should be? And as I said above, I have a second man of this unit reported died in the Times Casualty Lists but not on CWGC nor did I find him in any other record eg effects. (perhaps one of you sleuths can unearth this?) He is Gnr WEBB LRA , no 54 and I see does appear in IPT's Rangoon list of captured. Charlie Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bardess Posted 24 March , 2017 Share Posted 24 March , 2017 I've come to this a little late [as it's now 1am] but at least I can let you know: Vincent Allen Alfred Pearse was born on 29/1/88 and was baptised at All Saints Cathedral, Bathurst, NSW on 15/2/88. His parents were Alfred and Caroline Elizabeth. At least you now have his full name and can trawl Trove Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 24 March , 2017 Author Share Posted 24 March , 2017 Bardess, Excellent. Here is a clipping Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 25 March , 2017 Share Posted 25 March , 2017 Interesting to read all the information. As an Artillery Battery, all the men were officially part of the Royal Field Artillery, as most the Artillery in India at this time was part of the Royal Artillery (excluding Mountain Batteries and some Garrison Artillery). However, as the men came from India, (which include Burma at this time) they seem to fall between the cracks with regards to record keeping, and no one seemed to "own" them. I think it relates back to their hybrid status pre WW1. As members of Volunteer regiments they were part of the Indian Army, but as Artillery they were controlled by the Royal Artillery, or were actually part of the Royal Artillery, I'm not exactly sure. Reading the newspaper report, it is so sad to think how hungry they must have been at the fall of Kut. Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bardess Posted 25 March , 2017 Share Posted 25 March , 2017 Excellent! I hope this can help to 'bring him in' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaureenE Posted 25 March , 2017 Share Posted 25 March , 2017 This previous post by Dick Flory says 45 of the men were taken POW with 18 of them dying during captivity. A subsequent post by Dick says The source of my information is a photocopy of a handwritten manuscript titled With the Volunteer Artillery Battery in Kut and Mesopotamia, 1915-1916. It was most likely compiled by Major A. J. Anderson who commanded the Battery during that period as his name and address is written on the front interleaf. There was also a section of the Volunteer Artillery Battery which was not at Kut, which could have had additional deaths. Cheers Maureen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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