Dead .mans penny

[Kerry Milutin]

My great grandfather Joseph Willette #1005839,102bn,2nd central Ontario reg,dod 05-15-1918, the penny and scroll was stolen can anyone let me know how I can get copies or reproduction please

 

 

[chaz]

Hi Kerry

you wont actually get replacements, what you can get is new issue copies.

 

firstly do you have a crime number, you can post on the British Medal Forum

http://www.britishmedalforum.com/viewforum.php?f=327

 

if you are near a militaria fair http://www.britishmedalforum.com/viewforum.php?f=40

or ebay, you can purchase modern copies. BUT dont advertise you are looking for un named replacements otherwise someone unscrupulous may erase a period one. likewise you can buy death pennies. the difference is that instead of the name being cast proud theey are engraved into the disc panel.

[chaz]

another option is to set up an alert on ebay, this will alert you with an email if they should be put on auction.

you dont say how long they have been missing.

 

ahh I see from other postings you have made about him, you are in California. there are other members on the foum who might be better talking to. If you do need copies they can be purchased and mailed one way or the other.. good luck

[Sepoy]

Does this help, until you hopefully rediscover the original Scroll. When were the Memorial Plaque and Scroll stolen?

Sepoy

NB Regretfully, due to Family and Health issues, I am not in a position to produce these digital Memorial Scrolls for others.

[BillyH]

You may not like me saying this but "Dead Man's Penny" - admittedly a term that is very often used - seems a little bit disrespectful to some people such as myself, perhaps only to me though?  

Officially it is actually a Memorial Plaque.

I also think your great grandfather was probably 1003958 not 1005839?

Apologies if I come across as a bit pedantic.

 

BillyH.

[JMB1943]

I recently had two reproduction Memorial Scrolls made for me by a member here---Medaler---and they are excellent ! Just like the scroll shown in post #4

He advised me on wording/layout of the soldier details and was extremely helpful.

I recommend him without reservation.

Regards,

JMB

Edited 26 March , 2017 by JMB1943
Typo

[David Filsell]

I may be wrong, and I have particular feeling about the terminology, but accepting the fact that many soldiers do not, and did not, believe  that, "It's not a joke 'till it's gone to far", I suspect that the term was probably invented and employed by many veterans who survived the Great War. Can anyone suggest it's first useage or publication?

Edited 27 March , 2017 by David Filsell

[Steven Broomfield]

21 hours ago, BillyH said:

You may not like me saying this but "Dead Man's Penny" - admittedly a term that is very often used - seems a little bit disrespectful to some people such as myself, perhaps only to me though?  

Officially it is actually a Memorial Plaque.

I also think your great grandfather was probably 1003958 not 1005839?

Apologies if I come across as a bit pedantic.

 

BillyH.

It's been in use for more years than I care to remember - I don't see anything disrespectful in it.

[trajan]

The popular name does make the archaeologist in me think of the coin sometimes placed in the mouth of the deceased during Greek and Roman times to pay Charon for the crossing of the River Acheron. Perhaps some erudite journalist came up with the analogy in the popular press at some point after these began to be issued, given how the metal used is akin to that of the contemporary penny?

 

Trajan

[David Filsell]

Trajan, MR B

That all makes sense to me. It would be interesting to see if any of our  more lexicological contributors to tell us more.

[CGM]

You don't think it is simply because the penny in everyone's pocket featured Britannia and so did the memorial plaque, albeit with a more complex theme?

I have always felt the same way towards the two of them. They resemble each other. 

 

CGM

Edited 28 March , 2017 by CGM

[kenf48]

6 hours ago, trajan said:

The popular name does make the archaeologist in me think of the coin sometimes placed in the mouth of the deceased during Greek and Roman times to pay Charon for the crossing of the River Acheron. Perhaps some erudite journalist came up with the analogy in the popular press at some point after these began to be issued, given how the metal used is akin to that of the contemporary penny?

 

Trajan

 

 

I think a  contemporary, or post war journalist, erudite or not, would be rightly castigated for the suggestion.  

 

I can find no reference to the memorial plaque being referred to colloquially in the BNA or the Times Archive until this century.  Personally I don't think we've earned the right to call it anything other than a memorial plaque and scroll which is  how it is consistently referred to in the newspapers.

 

I have a similar aversion for the same reason to the supposedly 'colloquial' names for the 'war medals'.  

Though I had to chuckle at a recent post when they were referred to as 'bubble squeak and wilfred' my thoughts were unrepeatable in polite society.

 

Ken

[trajan]

Well, coinage of an erudite journalist or not, it might be worth bearing in mind that according to the OED the term 'Death penny' was in use in the 19th century, and I seem to recall that particular expression being used in the 1950's when visiting a neighbour who had one of these plaques on the wall. So, perhaps a search through archives might confirm the usage of that term for the memorial plaque, from which it would be a simple step to 'Dead Man's penny'.

[IPT]

I couldn't find any contemporary use of the term in the newspaper archives.

 

On the other hand, I did find a 1920 story about an unidentified man found in Nottinghamshire with his head blown off by a service revolver, with a single penny in every pocket, including his overcoat.

 

So it wasn't a complete waste of time.

[Medaler]

4 hours ago, IPT said:

I couldn't find any contemporary use of the term in the newspaper archives.

 

On the other hand, I did find a 1920 story about an unidentified man found in Nottinghamshire with his head blown off by a service revolver, with a single penny in every pocket, including his overcoat.

 

So it wasn't a complete waste of time.

 

Was that as a result of an earlier failed attempt to drown himself?

Mike

[kenf48]

There is a long cultural tradition of pennies or coins associated with the dead which explains the 19th Century OED reference

 

 I think  CGM's association for the colloquial association with the  memorial plaque is the most likely.

Which take us back to 1971 and pre-decimalisation!

 

Ken

Edited 29 March , 2017 by kenf48

[CGM]

I have been through my collection and found some "old pennies" from my collection.

These have darkened with age but would have been brighter when new, of course.

[PhilB]

Some recipients are ladies, so perhaps not such an appropriate name?

[David Filsell]

Pip, Squeak and Wilfred were most certainly the terms "of the day" named after comic strip of the time. Certainly an old soldier used them when speaking to me in the 50s when I were nobut a lad.

Since we are no longer - apparently - allowed to use the term girls for women - although no one has yet complained about men being called boys strangely - I shall soldier on regardless of the word fashion police . Personally I find Those  who wander the world getting off on a deep desire to find things to take offence about, and a lack of historical perspective, offensive. I shall keep badgering on. 

The wide use of the term "ladies" for all of the female sex is a new phenomenon. As a young journo I was  taught, in writing and speech, "All ladies are women, but not all women are ladies". How true.

time we all "Got a grip." And let freedom of speech a chance.

 

Here  endeth the rant - with apologies to the feint hearted.

Edited 29 March , 2017 by David Filsell

[kenf48]

4 hours ago, PhilB said:

Some recipients are ladies, so perhaps not such an appropriate name?

 

The memorial plaque was also colloquially known as 'Death Plaque' and the 'Widow's Penny' but why bother?

 

Memorial plaque and scroll is specific, descriptive and accurate, what's not to like?

 

Unless of course someone wishes to go off on one.  

 

Ken

[PhilB]

Quite!

[Old Owl]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

 

The memorial plaque was also colloquially known as 'Death Plaque' and the 'Widow's Penny' but why bother?

 

Memorial plaque and scroll is specific, descriptive and accurate, what's not to like?

 

Unless of course someone wishes to go off on one.  

 

Ken

I agree entirely Ken--it is called a Memorial Plaque and that is indeed what it should be called.

 

I find that the term 'Dead Man's Penny' sounds harsh and I can understand why BillyH might find it bordering on being disrespectful in some people's eyes.

 

Purely my own opinion.

[David Filsell]

Sadly the irony of the term has now been lost on many.

[Medaler]

3 hours ago, David Filsell said:

Pip, Squeak and Wilfred were most certainly the terms "of the day" named after comic strip of the time. Certainly an old soldier used them when speaking to me in the 50s when I were nobut a lad.

Since we are no longer - apparently - allowed to use the term girls for women - although no one has yet complained about men being called boys strangely - I shall soldier on regardless of the word fashion police . Personally I find Those  who wander the world getting off on a deep desire to find things to take offence about, and a lack of historical perspective, offensive. I shall keep badgering on. 

The wide use of the term "ladies" for all of the female sex is a new phenomenon. As a young journo I was  taught, in writing and speech, "All ladies are women, but not all women are ladies". How true.

time we all "Got a grip." And let freedom of speech a chance.

 

Here  endeth the rant - with apologies to the feint hearted.

 

Well, I'm with you 100%. I suppose the main reason I back your view is that the humble British soldier never seemed to share these latterly developed hightened sensibilities. If it was good enough for them, then its good enough for me. Surely it is no less disrespectful than the frequent references we find to the "undetected crime medal" - AKA the LSGC. To me its all part of the same ethos that makes me respect them all the more. In a sense, its a foil to the "Prussian militarism" that they believed typified their enemy. That little bit of disrespect that made Tommy who he was.

 

Mike

Edited 29 March , 2017 by Medaler

[David Filsell]

Medaler

thank you, I no longer feel alone!

best regars

David